Jan 24 1944 - P-51B enters service? - Request for Apache!!!

[Guppy35]

Karnak: Thats exactly where you are wrong. The P-51 with the four 20mm is the Apache and that didnt change until about the time Hills became an ace in it. The A-36 was called both Apache and Mustang (as well as Invader but neither officially or by the factory).

I hate to be the one to inform you that this game isnt about recreating WWII. This game is about air combat (and to some extent ground combat as far as it influences air combat) and adding an element of interest like the P-51 Apache can only enrich choices and whether you like to accept it or not this airplane will be a fighter and I believe more of a turn fighter than a boom and zoomer.

I would love to see this and the A-36 added. Yes the base takers would have a new aircraft as well as the tank killers and furballers too.

So you'd be content with the P51A or the Mustang I right?  This isn't about a little used 4 cannon bit?

[Chalenge]

The Mustang I saw service with the British only. The Apache/Mustang IA saw service with the British and Americans and like the Mk Is served until the end of the war as Tac/R for the British and F-6A for reconnaissance for the Americans. I chose the P-51 Apache/Mustang for two reasons. First it served for both the British and the Americans and second because the name Apache is often misrepresented as belonging to the A-36 alone and for historical reasons alone it should be added to AH.... but also it scares the bejeezus out of you!  

But as you well know Hitech and crew are more than skilled enough to add both.

[Rino]

As much as I want to see an A36 also you are mistaken about this. The A-26 was the USAAF Invader.

The factory plan name for all of the NA-73 and NA-91 (and descendants) was always Apache. The A-36 has come to be known as the A-36 Apache because of that and because pilots trained to fly the A-36 were introduced to the plane as the 'Apache' but at some time between training and the time it was in service at the front a few months it became known as the Mustang.

The P-51 (without sub-designation) was always the Apache (until July 1942). The same plane in British service was called the Mustang.

(Image removed from quote.)

     I think you are wrong.  The A-36 had dive brakes, the P-51 did not.  The A-36
was produced to keep the North American production line active until the USAAF
P-51 orders started rolling in.

[Chalenge]

No the history of this aircraft is as I stated it. The A-36 was designed before any type was accepted by the Americans because Atwood and Kindelberger both saw a need the USAAF had not recognized and they thought the type would best suit that need. What ended up happening (in essence) was the USAAF appropriated a portion of the British order (what they then called the P-51 Apache) for their own needs while they awaited the A-36. The A-36 was also a very handy type and it would also be wonderful to have it in AH. In fact I think it played a pivotal part in the types service acceptance as it was the first designed to carry bombs or drop tanks straight out of the factory.

[Guppy35]

The Mustang I saw service with the British only. The Apache/Mustang IA saw service with the British and Americans and like the Mk Is served until the end of the war as Tac/R for the British and F-6A for reconnaissance for the Americans. I chose the P-51 Apache/Mustang for two reasons. First it served for both the British and the Americans and second because the name Apache is often misrepresented as belonging to the A-36 alone and for historical reasons alone it should be added to AH.... but also it scares the bejeezus out of you!  

But as you well know Hitech and crew are more than skilled enough to add both.

LOL doesn't scare me, just is a misrepresentation of the 4 cannon 51 as being more of a presence then it was.  None in the PTO/CBI.  A very few with USAAF Tac Recon in the MTO, and use  by RAF as Army Coop birds.

[Chalenge]

Its you that are misrepresenting the important contribution of Tac/R and the fact that these same airplanes served through the war from their creation until the end.

[Baumer]

It appears to me that you are over stating their importance significantly, in order to justify including them. As Dan pointed out, there are other models of the P-51 that were used in greater numbers, and in more theaters than what you are asking for. I couldn't care less which model gets added, but to continue stating that it's next most significant model that needs to be added is clearly biased just to get a 4 cannon P-51 variant.

[Chalenge]

You are putting words in my mouth Baumer. Historically speaking the P-51 Apache was the first 'Mustang' to serve in Americas air force and I dont think numbers matter unless you consider an airplane where there were ever only one or two examples. Even then given the rules as described by Hitech himself there may be exceptions. As someone that has been interested in P-51s his entire life there are three examples that I find most interesting and therefore the first I would choose. The P-51 Apache is the first and yes it is the 'coolest' looking of all of them (even though I have heard people call it ugly it certainly isnt to me). The A-36 Mustang (Apache) because it has those neat dive brakes that will scare the bejeezus out of anything underneath them (even though I dont know how HTC could put sound to the brakes like there would be in real life). Finally there is the P-51D which is the finest example of a fighter ever built.

I never said they had to be 'next.' I just want them added and I am willing to bribe for them. 

[Guppy35]

Its you that are misrepresenting the important contribution of Tac/R and the fact that these same airplanes served through the war from their creation until the end.

If you are really going to argue Tac recon importance you are still talking the 4 50 version of the Allision Mustang.  The 4 cannon bird was not there til the end.  Malcom hooded F6Bs with 4 50s were.



The A36 was the first USAAF Mustang to see action btw. Big difference between that and getting taken over from the RAF.  93 Mustang Ia to RAF, 55 to the USAAF 54 of which were converted to camera birds, 33 of which went overseas. 111th Tac Recon Squadron had the few 4 cannon 51s as recce birds in the MTO     

27th and 86th Fighter Groups took the A36 into combat in the MTO.  311th FG took the A36 into action in the CBI in 43.   23,373 combat missions for the A36s.  177 aircraft lost.  84 air to air and 17 ground kills. 8000 tons of bombs dropped.  Loss rate of 0.8%

Interestingly enough the first RAF Mustang I was still flying combat in August 1940, three years after it rolled out of the factory.  It too was a machine guns version of the Mustang.

I've got 40+ years of Mustang history under my belt too.  First warbird I ever got into was a P51C that was in pieces next to a hanger.  I well  remember the Dallas factory data plate.

Again, I'm not against an Allison Mustang.  I am against the 4 cannon bird being anywhere near the top of any Allison Mustang list.  It is the least important historically of them all.  Keep in mind scenario, FSO and Snapshot use too.  Any of the MG Allision birds would have far more use from the ETO to MTO to CBI.

[Karnak]

USAAF Spitfire VIII pilot described the P-51D like thus after transitioning to it:

"It won't do what a Spitfire will do, but it will do it over Berlin."

You're bias is showing.


It has been pretty clear that the best fighter in US service, quite possibly best of the war, was the F4U.  I say this as somebody who has no particular fondness for the F4U.

[Chalenge]

Guppy: Now you are really confused. The four machine gun aircraft didnt come in until much later. The cannon armed P-51 Apache was used for evaluation and inspired later Mustang orders (A-36). The fifth production P-51 Apache (41-37324) was retained for F-6A modification and role trials with the USAAF. The very first A-36 Mustang (42-83663) didnt come into existence for more than a year later. I dont think the aircraft having been taken from a British order diminishes its historical significance at all. However...

The first American unit to fly the Mustang into action (combat) was the 154th Observation Squadron which used P-51-2NAs out of Morocco. If you look you will discover not only that this is true but that the P-51-2NA is a P-51 Apache with four 20mm cannon. That would be April and May of 1943. The A-36 Mustang did not see action (combat) until June of 1943 with the 27th and 86th Bombardment Groups.

Interestingly enough the first RAF Mustang I was still flying combat in August 1940, three years after it rolled out of the factory.  It too was a machine guns version of the Mustang.

Rather hard for a plane to have been flying for three years just four months after the first contract delivery. You might want to check your data.

Karnak: That is a much butchered quote from Gunther Rall who said the Mustang was not the dogfighter the Spitfire was but the Mustang could dogfight over Berlin. I doubt very much Gunther Rall ever saw an Allison engined Mustang but that was a nice little twist you put on it. Also its hard to accept that the F4U was the 'best' because it simply could not do what the P-51 did and lacked about 1000 miles range in which to do it. If it was the best I believe the USAAF would have been using it instead of Mustangs.

[Guppy35]

Typo.  August 44 on that first RAF bird.  Well our sources are different then as a couple of mine have the 27th and 86th going into combat in March 43 and state specifically that the A36 was the first USAAF Mustang in combat.

None of it changes that the 4 cannon 51 was the least significant Allision Mustang variant both in numbers and in actual combat use

[TheZohan]

Production

model , # made
NA-73: 1
XP-51: 2
XP-51F: 3
XP-51H: 2
XP-51J: 2
Mk I: 620
Mk IA: 150
Mustang Mk IA and Mustang Mk II: 620
A-36A: 148 initially ordered 500
Delivered between September 1942 and March 1943.
P-51: 148
P-51A: 310
P-51A / Mk II: 310
P-51B: 1,988
Produced at Inglewood
Delivered in June 1943.
P-51C: 1,750
Produced at Dallas
P-51D: 7,956
P-51H: 555
P-51K: 1,337
P-51M: 1
Total: 15,576, 15,586
Variants
XP-51: Prototype evaluated by the United States Air Force and was not adopted.
XP-51B / XP-78: Had Packard V-1650-3 Merlin engine. Had ventral intercooler intake.
XP-51F: Prototype. Was to be light weight. Some parts were replaced by plastic.Wheels were smaller.Two of the MGs were removed. The Fuselage fuel tank was removed. A light three blade propeller was used. Saved about 1,500 lb / 680 kg.Speed increased by 25 mph / 40 kph. Flight stability stopped further work.
XP-51G: Prototype.Powered by Merlin 14SM (1,910 HP).
XP-51J: Prototype. Powered by Allison V-1710-119 (1,700 HP).
Mustang X: Was Mustang Is converted to have Rolls-Royce Merlin engine. Had bulbous nose intake.
NA-73: Prototype. Had an Allison V-1710-F3F engine (1,100 HP).
Mustang Mk I: Supplied to the Royal Air Force (RAF).
Mustang Mk IA: Supplied to the Royal Air Force (RAF).Had cannons for armament. Originally called Apache by the United States Army Air Force.
Mustang Mk II: Supplied to the Royal Air Force (RAF).
A-36A: Ground attack. Had wing bomb shackles. Had four 20 mm cannons in the wings.
P-51A / Mustang Mk II: Used a Allison V-1710-81 engine (1,200 HP).
P-51B / Mustang Mk III: Additional fuselage fuel tank.
P-51C / Mustang Mk III:
P-51D / Mustang Mk IV:
P-51H: Top speed was 472 mph / 760 kph1 / 487 mph / 784 kph
P-51K: Used Aeroproducts propeller.
P-51L: Used direct fuel injected V-1650-11. None built.
P-51M: Identical to P-51H but was to be built in different factory. One delivered.
F-6A: Photo reconnaissance conversion.Converted from 57 Mustang Mk IAs that were diverted from British orders right after Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
F-6B: Photo reconnaissance conversion Converted from 35 P-51As. Also 91 converted from P-51B.

based on what i see there was about 500 A-36A's compared to almost 8,000 51D's that being said the P51B model only had about 2,000 which is ingame now.  

that also being said there was more operational A-36's that  saw action then 262's  they are in the game. 

and the ar-234 had less then that

[BnZs]

You're bias is showing.


It has been pretty clear that the best fighter in US service, quite possibly best of the war, was the F4U.  I say this as somebody who has no particular fondness for the F4U.

Keep in mind what is true in the game may or may not have been true in reality.

P-51 is an airplane that in reality acquitted itself just fine in hot and heavy dogfights with Me-109s over Europe and to a lesser extent against Russian prop fighters over Korea, and was considered a substantially better dogfighter than the P-47. This is not the case in AHII, where all the types named tend to have edge over the 'Stang in maneuver combat. Perhaps our ingame dogfights between Corsairs and Mustangs do not do the P-51 justice.

BTW, if you are comparing the P-51D to the F4U-4, that is not entirely fair. The F4U-4 served in the last few months of a war the P-51H missed by a whisker. It is clear that the Mustang vs. Corsair paradigm is going to pit speed and climb against light wingloading anytime the two airframes are engined to give similar thrust/weight...IOW, the classic "E fighter vs. Angles Fighter" debate.

[Karnak]

BnZ,

I was referring to reality, not the game.  Captain Eric Brown and the Soccer War were my basis for the statement.