Question about a P-51 maneuver

[morfiend]

i was not discussing equality in operation i was pointing out the apparent disparity in the methodology as some planes are deploying their low deflection flaps at over twice the speed as their POH says is safe, while others are 10% less than what their POH says it should be able to be deployed. 
also many of the POH expressly discourage large deflection angles for flight, some even for landing.
there are other force/deflection angle/speed arguments that are ignored in favor of the POH yet there are other parts of the POH that are ignored in favor of other criteria.  consistency of criteria should be consistent imo.



+S+

t

 Ok if you can back this statement up I'd like to see proof,the over twice their speed part would do.
 And if you prove this to me I'll jump on your bandwagon,I prefer the LW ride and if you can backup this premise I'd agree.

 However I have more influence than any other player,So proving it to me is of little consequences.

[Chalenge]

There is one and only one thing I have found that I can do online in a P-51D that I dont believe could be done in real life. I do not believe that a real P-51D could land with a full bomb load and full of fuel but that does not lend thorsim any credibility for his argument because this is a problem with load handling limitations and not flight.

There are two mentions of flaps on the P-51 POH (P-51 Airplane - Pilot's Handbook of Flight Operating Instructions). The first is a picture showing the location of the actuation lever and the other is flap instructions during landing as seen in the image below here and you should note the flaps are always in the fully extended position. There is no warning about dangers with the flaps out or any mention of maximum speed for extending flaps (although I know there is a placard in the cockpit listing speeds limitations).

[thorsim]

look at the p40 POH and compare it's stated flap deployment speeds to the ones in game.

ta152 was stated to be 20 mph to slow for first flap deployment ...

what does the hog's pos say about flaps challenger and then re read my post. ..

still waiting for your examples of how full flap combat is a-ok historically

 Ok if you can back this statement up I'd like to see proof,the over twice their speed part would do.
 And if you prove this to me I'll jump on your bandwagon,I prefer the LW ride and if you can backup this premise I'd agree.

 However I have more influence than any other player,So proving it to me is of little consequences.

[morfiend]

I knew the p40 flaps werent right and expected them to be corrected when the model is updated to AHII standard.

 As for the 152,I'd heard their deployment speed was somewhat higher but no documentaion to prove,or documentation stating different facts.

 I never said full flaps during combat was a good idea,infact one of the trainers did an intensive study on flap deployment and anything over 2 notches was begining to have diminising returns.

 Again your 2 examples would fall into that minor catagory of things needing to be addressed.

 At this point this thread has gone so far off track,I'm guilty myself of derailing it that I will no further comment except to the original subject.


 

[Chalenge]

If someone has the P-40 or P-47 POH (Pilot's Flight Operating Instructions - any model) please copy the appropriate section and paste a copy of it here. It will be just like the section I posted above (lacking deployment limitations).

The only existing POH (aircraft handbook) for a Focke-Wulf that I am aware of is that of a FW 190 A-5/A-6 or FW 190 F-8.

I did ask 'Bud' Anderson about this specifically and he said in combat you do what it takes.

[thorsim]

yea sorry ...

just got started on flaps after the pony is under modeled example ...

imo the p40 speeds are probably correct physically but are way off the poh, imo they should be an example of what to do, not what is wrong ...

it is not like the world ended cuz the plane has usable combat flaps ...

but thats the last i will post here ...

I knew the p40 flaps werent right and expected them to be corrected when the model is updated to AHII standard.

 As for the 152,I'd heard their deployment speed was somewhat higher but no documentaion to prove,or documentation stating different facts.

 I never said full flaps during combat was a good idea,infact one of the trainers did an intensive study on flap deployment and anything over 2 notches was begining to have diminising returns.

 Again your 2 examples would fall into that minor catagory of things needing to be addressed.

 At this point this thread has gone so far off track,I'm guilty myself of derailing it that I will no further comment except to the original subject.


 

bud anderson has it right, you do what you gotta do ...

imo that means the POH is not the best criteria on a lot of things

and "what you gotta do", may not work very well, even though it is your best option ...

++S++

t

If someone has the P-40 or P-47 POH (Pilot's Flight Operating Instructions - any model) please copy the appropriate section and paste a copy of it here. It will be just like the section I posted above (lacking deployment limitations).

The only existing POH (aircraft handbook) for a Focke-Wulf that I am aware of is that of a FW 190 A-5/A-6 or FW 190 F-8.

I did ask 'Bud' Anderson about this specifically and he said in combat you do what it takes.

[Guppy35]

still waiting for your examples of how full flap combat is a-ok historically

Did you not see my quote of Cy Homer from the wartime 5th AF fighter pilot's bible "Twelve to One"?  He was very clear.  You do what it takes including full flaps if it is necessary.

[Yeager]

Was there ever any historical note of what flaps setting McGuire might have deployed when he stalled his unskinned 38 and crashed to his death? 

[Chalenge]

Unskinned? I dont remember all the details of the event but I do know he had drop tanks (slightly tail-heavy perhaps) and he was in a fight. Flaps dont really make much difference in a spin but I dont think they hurt anything and in fact they would probably help get some oscillation going in an inverted spin which might help get the nose down. That works in AH anyway.

The only reason you might want to use less than full flaps in a landing is (in TRW): practice... gusting winds... strong crosswinds... slips if flaps spoil wash over the tail...ice. Of these reasons only slips or practice could influence you online and I dont think the game models spoiling of wash over the tail. If you want to argue about tail spoilage... count me out I didnt even see anyone mention it until I did and it has nothing to do with a turn fight (unless you are holding off airspeed and slipping down to a fight in which case you wont have flaps out).

[Ack-Ack]

 I never said full flaps during combat was a good idea,infact one of the trainers did an intensive study on flap deployment and anything over 2 notches was begining to have diminising returns.




 

The only problem is that thorsim will ignore what the trainers say and what we've been telling him along.  See, it doesn't fit what thorsim believes to be true so he flushes it down the toilet.  His real motivation is to change how some players use flaps by changing the flight model, regardless of the fact that the more experienced and veteran players don't use flaps like he insists are used by teh majority on every single flight.

He has also failed to show each time he's been asked any proof that the flaps are modeled incorrectly for any plane, he just uses the same tired mantra over and over, "real life pilots didn't fly that way...".  Now I understand why HiTech bowed out of the last thread thorsim took part in, it is frustrating talking to something that has the comprehension of a brick wall.


ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

Was there ever any historical note of what flaps setting McGuire might have deployed when he stalled his unskinned 38 and crashed to his death?  

Flaps played absolutely no part in McGuire's death.  He got into a spin and at the altitude he was at (IIRC, around 500 to 300ft) impossible to recover and it wasn't "his" P-38, he was flying another pilot's plane.


ack-ack

[morfiend]

The only problem is that thorsim will ignore what the trainers say and what we've been telling him along.  See, it doesn't fit what thorsim believes to be true so he flushes it down the toilet.  His real motivation is to change how some players use flaps by changing the flight model, regardless of the fact that the more experienced and veteran players don't use flaps like he insists are used by teh majority on every single flight.

He has also failed to show each time he's been asked any proof that the flaps are modeled incorrectly for any plane, he just uses the same tired mantra over and over, "real life pilots didn't fly that way...".  Now I understand why HiTech bowed out of the last thread thorsim took part in, it is frustrating talking to something that has the comprehension of a brick wall.


ack-ack

  Agreed Ack,just wanted my kick at the cat,so to speak...