FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Bombng Results

[ghostdancer]

I can't give a target by target break down, except for the attack on the British fleet where the CA and 3 DDs were sunk, but I have the overall bombing results for frame 1.

The LW overall destroyed 35% of their targets for frame 1.

[TequilaChaser]

I can't give a target by target break down, except for the attack on the British fleet where the CA and 3 DDs were sunk by JU88s after they were spotted coming to the C97 area........2 1/2 minutes after the T + 60 / 1 hour remaining. then the JU88s destroyed these floating vessels shortly there after, but I have the overall bombing results for frame 1.

The LW overall destroyed 35% of their targets for frame 1.

there ya go ghostdancer, I gave it a little bit more detail for ya 

[68Wooley]

there ya go ghostdancer, I gave it a little bit more detail for ya  

Whilst it appears to have been tight, the first hits on the ships occurred around the time you say the bombers were spotted coming into the area - about T62:35, which means the attack must have commenced a couple of minutes earlier.  BTW, that attack was by JU-87's, not 88's as you state.

Also, I see the 109 escorts were engaged well before T+60.  

This is probably worth the CM's taking a look at (if indeed they haven't already), but I doubt it will classified as a late attack.

[TequilaChaser]

Whilst it appears to have been tight, the first hits on the ships occurred around the time you say the bombers were spotted coming into the area - about T62:35, which means the attack must have commenced a couple of minutes earlier.  BTW, that attack was by JU-87's, not 88's as you state.

Also, I see the 109 escorts were engaged well before T+60.   

This is probably worth the CM's taking a look at (if indeed they haven't already), but I doubt it will classified as a late attack.

68Wooley,
the 2 squads that were assigned to cover this area, were on the radio asking if we could leave, after the 1 Hour mark had been called by the CM in blue text....because their was no bombers in sight of that particular taskgroup........ yes their was a cple 109s that engaged the Defense cap early but no buffs........ then their was some 109s (2 to be exact) right at  the 1 hr mark as well.......

but it is not my call.....I only have my film to go by and what was being typed  or said over the radio channels....besides: thats why we have CM's 

btw... my post was as posted: giving more detail of how things turned out.......someone on my film said JU88s coming, my bad, they were actually 87's! I had already turned N to go refuel because it was after the 1 Hr mark and there was only "1" new 109 in the area, 1 before him had either ran S or was already dispatched.......that's bout all I can say on the matter, Sir

either way, I am sure the CM will figure it out, and don't take my post as a whine........ is all good fun 

[68Wooley]

68Wooley,
the 2 squads that were assigned to cover this area, were on the radio asking if we could leave, after the 1 Hour mark had been called by the CM in blue text....because their was no bombers in sight of that particular taskgroup........ yes their was a cple 109s that engaged the Defense cap early but no buffs........ then their was some 109s (2 to be exact) right at  the 1 hr mark as well.......

but it is not my call.....I only have my film to go by and what was being typed  or said over the radio channels....besides: thats why we have CM's 

btw... my post was as posted: giving more detail of how things turned out.......someone on my film said JU88s coming, my bad, they were actually 87's! I had already turned N to go refuel because it was after the 1 Hr mark and there was only "1" new 109 in the area, 1 before him had either ran S or was already dispatched.......that's bout all I can say on the matter, Sir

either way, I am sure the CM will figure it out, and don't take my post as a whine........ is all good fun 

Its no problem - you're perfectly within rights to question these things. Sorry if my post came across a bit harsh. I really just wanted to point out that the timing of the first bomb hits in the logs would indicate an attack starting *just* within limits. I should also point out I wasn't there so I'm guessing.

 

 

[68Hawk]

Any final determination on this would be up to one of the CMs running the event. 

My own interpretation of this rule is that the attackers are to be actively engaging the defenses and pushing to the target by this time.  If the bombs aren't out quite yet an attack is still under way.  When you have a target like this in a wide area that must be found before being struck, I think it can be considered that the attack group is making an attack as they undertake their search.  They aren't dawdling or trying to avoid contact with the enemy, they just don't know where to put their ordnance yet.  It's different than with a base that's plainly on the radar.

It also didn't help that the CV was put in the far NE corner of the containment area.  It would have been found at least 20 min sooner if it had been more towards open water.  Also remember that Stukas putt around like a lawnmower engine in a Mac truck.

[j500ss]

There were 2 reasons the task force was put there, you were one of those reasons.  

So far as the actual attack and the time goes,  I would probably call it good,  but thats just me.


 

[Drano]

The fleet was in a 4 sector square, that's true. It was found by a flight of 109s fairly early in the frame. Those sweepers were engaged and dealt with. But surely they passed along the fleet's position? Right? I know the Stukas are like slow death guys. Been there, done that. But if the fleet's been found and you know you're a long way off, whoever is leading the Stukas has got to either cut a corner, reduce climb rate or stop climbing altogether in order to make it to the target on time. The T+60 rule has been around a long, long time. The rules also state the target has to be attacked in squad force by then. The idea is certainly not, in my estimation, to stretch things out by sending in a fighter or two or three at a time because the Stukas might not make it and figure that's OK. Hate to nit pick but these are either rules or they're not.

I was commanding the CAP of the fleet. Once the initial sweepers were engaged there was a lot of flying around and seeing a few 109s in the ionosphere and nothing else. Hardly an engaged attack on the fleet IMHO. Once the T+60 mark came we turned for A52 and a refueling. Otherwise you would have definitely run into a wall of Spits and Hurris defending the place which were by then not out on a searching patrol a sector or so out but were all in the general area of the fleet as we knew you were quickly running out of time.

My 2 cents,

Drano

[daddog]

Good questions, comments gents.

Is it within the 60 minute mark:
-   when the first enemy planes are spotted?
-   when the first enemy planes are engaged?
-   when the first enemy planes are damaged?
-   when the first enemy planes are shot down?
-   when the first bombs land on the target?
-   when the first target is destroyed?

You guys get my drift. It will be Ghostdancers call if they were late or not, and the call of each Admin CM in his particular setup. IMHO it will be the job of the attacking force (when possible) to be so prompt as to avoid any kind of debatable decision by the Admin CM. 

[Dantoo]

Just speaking generally, a good point has been raised here.  I can quickly think of a few occasions not too long back when time was a problem for groups attacking fleets.  It usually was a combination of a long flight combined with a 4 square or greater search.  Often things have been made even harder by lower visibility settings and sometimes cloud.  It is possible to spend more than 20 minutes searching a 4 square containment area before finding your target.  

Emphasis needs to be made that is intention that is tested and examined in the reviews of these matters.  The rule was brought in and then redefined and again redefined, to ensure that as far as possible, that everyone that participates sees some action during a frame.  There has been an increasing misunderstanding, as time has gone on, that a bomb or a bullet has to strike home before T+60.  This was never the intention of the rule as explained when introduced.  It was always understood that an effective defence could prevent so much as a single attacker's bomb getting to a target.  The rule today still stands as a pillar, ensuring that each player has a reasonable (not guaranteed) chance to see action in a two hour frame.

There is evidence that a continued misunderstanding of the intentions behind the rule are starting to cause a loss of "quality" in game play.  I have observed, on more than one occasion, squads believing they were required to make a suicide attack on a target simply to comply with the rule.  That is a direct consequence of a misunderstanding that an object exploding must be recorded on the logs before T+60.  FSO is a one life event and the quality of the event depends upon the participants placing a reasonable value upon that one life.

If the defenders force you away from your target then they are doing their job.  Remaining alive and reorganising to go back and probe from another direction is part of the attacker's job.  Your CIC will give you a task and it is your duty to do your very best to complete it and return alive.  The FSO rules state that:

- Frame CiC's must assign squads to hit all targets within the first hour of the frame.

- Frame CiC.’s must assign squads to defend all targets during the first hour.

They don't say that a squad must wipe itself out in a desperate bid to get at least one plane to the target in a screaming dive from 25k trailing smoke and red icons to get a bomb on an ammo bunker by T+59.  If you are assigned an attacking role you must do your best to get your bombs to the target in the first hour.  No deliberate hanging about out on the fringes waiting to get a strike in at T+119.  If you are defending you should fly a tactical plan that reasonably enables you to defend a designated target for a minimum of 60 minutes.  You are not required to blindly wander into 6 to 1 odds blazing away at a red dust storm.  A better move is track and trail, pick off stragglers and scream for help.  If you throw away your ride ineffectively you aren't helping your CIC much and the rules certainly don't require you to do so.

Trying to place a fixed and definitive moment an attack or defence has commenced or ceased will be counter-productive and I fear will bring ever increasing heat and emotion to post-frame interactions.  The CMs need to remain totally free to judge whether a frame CIC has assigned their forces in accordance with the rules; and squads have made a reasonable effort to comply with the directions given by their CICs.  The CMs are wise wise types who know the minds of ordinary mortals.  

[Kermit de frog]

Just speaking generally, a good point has been raised here.  I can quickly think of a few occasions not too long back when time was a problem for groups attacking fleets.  It usually was a combination of a long flight combined with a 4 square or greater search.  Often things have been made even harder by lower visibility settings and sometimes cloud.  It is possible to spend more than 20 minutes searching a 4 square containment area before finding your target. 

Emphasis needs to be made that is intention that is tested and examined in the reviews of these matters.  The rule was brought in and then redefined and again redefined, to ensure that as far as possible, that everyone that participates sees some action during a frame.  There has been an increasing misunderstanding, as time has gone on, that a bomb or a bullet has to strike home before T+60.  This was never the intention of the rule as explained when introduced.  It was always understood that an effective defence could prevent so much as a single attacker's bomb getting to a target.  The rule today still stands as a pillar, ensuring that each player has a reasonable (not guaranteed) chance to see action in a two hour frame.

There is evidence that a continued misunderstanding of the intentions behind the rule are starting to cause a loss of "quality" in game play.  I have observed, on more than one occasion, squads believing they were required to make a suicide attack on a target simply to comply with the rule.  That is a direct consequence of a misunderstanding that an object exploding must be recorded on the logs before T+60.  FSO is a one life event and the quality of the event depends upon the participants placing a reasonable value upon that one life.

If the defenders force you away from your target then they are doing their job.  Remaining alive and reorganising to go back and probe from another direction is part of the attacker's job.  Your CIC will give you a task and it is your duty to do your very best to complete it and return alive.  The FSO rules state that:

They don't say that a squad must wipe itself out in a desperate bid to get at least one plane to the target in a screaming dive from 25k trailing smoke and red icons to get a bomb on an ammo bunker by T+59.  If you are assigned an attacking role you must do your best to get your bombs to the target in the first hour.  No deliberate hanging about out on the fringes waiting to get a strike in at T+119.  If you are defending you should fly a tactical plan that reasonably enables you to defend a designated target for a minimum of 60 minutes.  You are not required to blindly wander into 6 to 1 odds blazing away at a red dust storm.  A better move is track and trail, pick off stragglers and scream for help.  If you throw away your ride ineffectively you aren't helping your CIC much and the rules certainly don't require you to do so.

Trying to place a fixed and definitive moment an attack or defence has commenced or ceased will be counter-productive and I fear will bring ever increasing heat and emotion to post-frame interactions.  The CMs need to remain totally free to judge whether a frame CIC has assigned their forces in accordance with the rules; and squads have made a reasonable effort to comply with the directions given by their CICs.  The CMs are wise wise types who know the minds of ordinary mortals. 

If any defender forces the attacker away, yes the defenders are doing their job, because the attacks are not doing theirs well enough!

I believe the quality of gameplay is enhanced more than it is reduced with the current T+60 rule.  If someone's plan fails to get bombs to hit by T+60 in squad strength, then he has failed the FSO community.

The CMs will continue to watch out for targets too far away with current planesets when they issue the frames objectives.
If you are given a mission that seems suicidal to you, speak before game night.  If you did and are still not given adequate resources in time, then hope for the best and carry out your mission.  IF you do run into a "red dust storm", do your best to come out victorious.  The more people that attack you and your group, the less enemy's there will be at other targets at that time.  If you can come out victorious, surely others can as well with less opposition.  If the enemy outnumbers you 2:1, then your side will outnumber the enemy 2:1 at some other point on the map...theoretically. 

I also believe experiencing different situations, good or bad, is a GREAT thing, but as with everything in life, moderation is important.

So the excuse of breaking the current T+60 rule because you don't have enough numbers is NOT ok in my eyes.  I believe this would lead down the wrong path.

[Drano]

More good comments from my learned colleague Dantoo although they don't really fit what happened here. There was an initial probe that found the target fleet almost immediately so there wasn't really any time to speak of wasted looking around for it. Weather wasn't a factor really. I've played in worse. Last time I was in this setup I was in the Ju88s and we found the fleet in time and made successive passes--pretty sure Dantoo's group was one that escorted us that frame. I'll have to disagree that simply having an enemy plane or two around constitutes any sort of an attack. The 3 Me109s in the air over the fleet near the time it was hit didn't really make an effective fighter sweep. I might have considered the earlier, larger group a sweep but they weren't around very long. If either of those groups had lugged bombs (Emil carry one?) and dropped on the ships I could see--but that didn't happen. Look, If I'm defending a target and I don't see anything resembling an attack plane in the area by T+60--am I supposed to wait around til T+75? Hell no. I'm off to help defend one of the other targets if I'm within range and can do so with the hour we have left. This is exactly what we were doing the other night. Regrouping to help defend the next base over, think it was 51 from a follow on attack. That base HAD been attacked earlier and could have been legally attacked again in the second hour. All I'm saying if it's 60 then it oughta be 60. If a plane or two in the air constitutes an attack then you might consider sometime in the future seeing a guy like that really enjoys timing such things just sending a pair of planes into a target area in shifts and nailing it with my bombers when I know the bad guys are just about all out of fuel. I've done things like this before. I'll use what's available to me.

I go back in FSO prior to the 60 minute rule and I think I can take credit at least in part for its adoption. One frame I was CO for the Japanese side. Think it was a Midway setup or Guadalcanal--whichever one had two islands right next to each other with a ton of stuff on em to hit. Anyway as I knew I had two full hours of time to deal with I simply test flew a Ju88 from the island to my nearest friendly field and made a note of the time that flight took and what the course was from the target. I came up with a flight path for the bombers that took almost exactly the balance of the two hours. After taking my roundabout route to the target I sent my fighters ahead about 2 sectors out. They found a bunch of F4Fs either heading down for fuel or had just taken off climbing and full of fuel. It was a bloodbath. And the best part--as we came in from the West all we had to deal with was a single P-40 that I recall. All dropped. I got--I swear--104 targets destroyed in one pass. We didn't leave two sticks stuck together on either island. Turned left about 120 degrees, set a 500 fpm dive and we were all home with a couple of minutes to spare and only a plane or two damaged.

While I was thinking that was a helluva plan the was it all worked out this forum was jammed with cries of what a fun-wrecking poopie-head Drano was for wasting everyone's time that had been defending the fields we hit. And yaknow what--they were right. We all look forward to flying in this event not to just bore holes in the virtual sky. We all know we won't be in a fight 10 minutes into the frame--generally. But we also know the setup dictates that we won't be wasting a lot of time just flying around. And if that were the case no one would give up their time to show up in the event. So we gotta come up with something that works here. I'll go along with whatever.

For the record I've always been in favor of extending the time limit on anti-shipping strikes just because of the difficulty in finding them relative a fixed target. Sometimes the bastids are hard to find!

Drano

[68falcon]

FYI I'm pretty sure we where there at or just before T+60 and running from the enemy planes that where on station and at the same time towards the ships. I know I was doing things with that stuka that would have made any Luftwaffe pilot think that pilot is nuts. 

68boxcar
22:01:53 Departed from Field #73 in a Ju 87D-3
23:02:37 Was shot down by MachFly.




68Raptor
22:01:43 Departed from Field #73 in a Ju 87D-3
23:02:51 Destroyed a field gun at base #97
23:02:51 Destroyed a field gun at base #97
23:02:51 Destroyed a field gun at base #97
23:02:51 Destroyed a field gun at base #97
23:02:51 Destroyed a field gun at base #97
23:02:51 Destroyed a field gun at base #97
23:02:51 Destroyed a field gun at base #97
23:02:51 Destroyed a gun battery at base #97
23:02:51 Destroyed a field gun at base #97
23:02:51 Destroyed a field gun at base #97
23:02:52 Destroyed a field gun at base #97
23:04:59 Was shot down by fbJay (crashed)

The earliest time recorded for departed field xxxx that I could find was 22:01:43. Using that time 68Boxcar was shot down 54 seconds after T+60

[Dantoo]

There was nothing in my post that disagrees with anything in yours Drano. 

If you haven't been attacked by T+60 something has gone wrong.  Probably the attackers got hit on the way in or got lost.  It's still on them to try. Stuff happens.

On the other hand, if you've forced the attackers away from the target so that they have to regroup, you've still been attacked.  In fact you've excelled at your job.  They may get in a second go before the hour or maybe just after, that's good.  You don't have to go looking for a fight, it keeps on getting up off the floor and coming back.  Conceivably you could keep them away all night.  In such a case you clearly win.  It's possible, if you are good at your job, that not a single bomb hits the target over 2 hours, but there are still a reasonable number of survivors on both sides.  They are the long immersive fights that make the game so good.

Looking for and finding target damage before the hour definitely proves a target was attacked.  Not finding any bomb damage does not, however, prove that a target was not attacked.

I have made multiple attacks on targets before the hour and not been able to force my way in.  Sometimes I have been able to pull back, hold, reform and re-engage.  Sometimes I have been wiped out.  Clearly I don't get any bombs on target at all in the latter case.  In both cases I have attacked and attacked on time.  On other occasions, I have been hit hard by a strike group coming the other way.  On several occasions, particularly with Jabo missions, we have had to ditch ord and fight a running battle all the way back to help.  Soon as we could, we reloaded and headed out on the original mission again.  If we were then to arrive at our target at T+75, we at least have tried to give the defenders there a fight.  If we had kept our ord and waddled about til all were destroyed, we wouldn't have got to the target at all and the defenders would have had a pointless night circling about for an attack that is never coming.

My point is that the logs are not the sole definitive answer.  It is about intent.

Falcon's post says a lot to me about the Ju87 attack.  He was running from the enemy planes that were on station.  He was already attacking at that time.  They were trying to preserve their strike force to hit the ships as effectively as possible, perhaps trying to vector in escorts.  After nearly an hour parading about in a Ju87 they might have wanted to just bomb and get out of there.  They saw a chance to get through and did so, albeit with losses.  If they hadn't dived etc.. they may have become pointless cannon fodder.

If they had been intercepted before the ships had been found, their escort gone, what then?  It is not their responsibility to sit quietly and provide kills for Hurricanes.  In fact it is their responsibility to survive.  They are entitled to fight for their survival, ditch ord and run.  The defenders win at this point because the attack is stopped.  That's clear. No bomb will strike home in the first hour.  They did attack however, even though they never sighted a target. If they then had a few survivors who were willing to go back for a second run then they are also doing the right thing.  In such a case the first bombs on target might not fall until T+90.  An argument might be made that they hadn't attacked until that time if just the logs were used.  It would be a false argument.

My one point is this:
It's all about intent, leave it to the CMs.  The logs do not reveal all.

[Dantoo]

We all know we won't be in a fight 10 minutes into the frame--generally.

Heh that reminded me of something.  Remember way back, in a TOD that was modelled on D-Day I think, the Axis Commander made all his guys hold on the ground for 15 mins.  This was a pleasant surprise for the first Allied Strike that hit their fields at about T+10. 

The BBS exploded that time too.