P47-M question

[MjTalon]

Didn't the M have the option to run completely slick? ( No DT hard points )

Curious. IIRC there was some information floating around the net in regards to the M being able to run completely clean without the DT hard points. Can anyone confirm?

[Anaxogoras]

I've seen pictures that seem to lack the pylons for drop tanks.  It would be a nice option for them to be removed if you do not load drop tanks.

[MjTalon]

I've seen pictures that seem to lack the pylons for drop tanks.  It would be a nice option for them to be removed if you do not load drop tanks.

Yea, that's what I'm referring too. Would be lovely to have those wings completely clean if you choose to run slick.

[Plazus]

Absolutely, just think of how much benefit it would be! 

[Grape]

That would be nice. 

[Stoney]

I think the issue is that in actual operations, the 56th always flew with pylons and drops.  They didn't take pylons off for missions and fly slick.

[Krusty]

You see, that's quite interesting... Because one of the arguments for having a -M that folks bring up over and over is less drag, no pylons, etc...

Admitedly this is news to me, but I recall folks kept bringing it up, even claiming that alone was +15mph (or whatever), and turns out wasn't even the way it was flown!!! 

[Stoney]

Well, the increased engine power is the biggest boon to its performance, not drag or weight reduction, even though both were envisioned when the design analysis began.  On paper, IIRC, the design concept began with 6 X caliber .50 and no pylons.  Ultimately, the realities of ETO forced a more practical setup.  The biggest problem is that there is so much misinformation about the P-47M in a lot of "trusted" documentation about the Jug.  You really have to weed through it to get the true picture.

But, given all of that extra horsepower, the pylons don't knock too much performance off, compared to the utility of the drop tanks.

[Krusty]

Ever run into anything that says 400rpg were used on the M?

[Stoney]

No, not specifically, but since the airframe is the same as the D-series, it would have had the capability, regardless of whether or not the 56th loaded them that way.  For the most part, the heavy ammo package was a 9th AF load, from what I've read--IIRC...

[RufusLeaking]

Well, the increased engine power is the biggest boon to its performance, not drag or weight reduction, even though both were envisioned when the design analysis began.  On paper, IIRC, the design concept began with 6 X caliber .50 and no pylons.  Ultimately, the realities of ETO forced a more practical setup.  The biggest problem is that there is so much misinformation about the P-47M in a lot of "trusted" documentation about the Jug.  You really have to weed through it to get the true picture.

But, given all of that extra horsepower, the pylons don't knock too much performance off, compared to the utility of the drop tanks.

As I stated on another thread, I've got a book that says the M had only six 0.50's. You seem to have info to the contrary.  So the M did have eight guns?

On this issue of the pylons, what would the effect on stability if they were removed?  The design intent is to allow airflow on the lower wing surface, but they are a fairly large vertical surface in their one right.  Though they are probably too close to the centers of gravity and lift to be significant.   

[Stoney]

As I stated on another thread, I've got a book that says the M had only six 0.50's. You seem to have info to the contrary.  So the M did have eight guns?

On this issue of the pylons, what would the effect on stability if they were removed?  The design intent is to allow airflow on the lower wing surface, but they are a fairly large vertical surface in their one right.  Though they are probably too close to the centers of gravity and lift to be significant.   

Like I've said in other threads, there are a lot of books that have muddied the waters as far as the M goes.  The original design for the P-47M, as I understand it, was to decrease some weight, strap on the new powerplant, and make a very high performance fighter/interceptor.  Probably, Republic determined that this was the most effective method to remove or reduce the number one criticism of the Jug--its climb performance.  So, the long-range escort fuel and heavier firepower were not part of the design concept.  However, after the initial testing, once the aircraft rolled out of the factory, they didn't have the dorsal fin or the pylons as standard equipment.  The airframe was still a D-series airframe, so it had the capability to carry 8 guns, even though the earlier concept was for 6.  Once fielded, the 56th quickly modded the aircraft to carry pylons and added the dorsal fin.  During combat, they continued to normally equip the aircraft with 8 guns.

As far as added stability, I have no idea.  I would guess that they probably affected roll stability, but the Jug was a very stable aircraft, in general, so I doubt they really had a noticeable impact in that regard.  Yaw stability was affected by the dorsal fin more than anything.  The higher speed from the lost drag was probably the most conspicuous difference.

[Hap]

This is the only existing photo of the "unofficial" XP-47M test mule. After being used as a testbed for the Pratt & Whitney R-2800 C series engine, it was fitted with 27 inch long wing extensions (at the wing root), and used to test the flight characteristics of the modified wing. When the request for a long range Thunderbolt came along, this fighter was wheeled out, dusted off and presented to the Air Material Command. The photo shows the fighter prior to receiving the modified wing.

In May of 1944, an Expenditure Order was issued and $101,000 was allocated to Republic to develop a “wet” wing to be installed on one of the three YP-47M prototypes. Within 30 days Republic was able to present a test report based upon their earlier testing, along with a full set of drawings as a proposal to the Air Material Command. The new drawings illustrated the new wing design. The inserts were now just 18 inches in length, and contained an integral fuel tank for 100 gallons of fuel. In the contract, the #3 YP-47M was specified as the test aircraft (S/N 42-27387). Twenty hours of flight time were expected after the new wing had been installed. In July, the fighter was officially designated as the XP-47N and the unofficial test mule was re-designated as a P-47C-5-RE once again. The final disposition of the test mule is unknown. It did, however, retain its new wings and the more powerful C series engine for as long as the aircraft appeared on the company inventory.

The modifications to the existing YP-47M were considerable. Aside from simply installing the wing inserts and fuel tanks, the flaps were required to be redesigned, and the ailerons had to be modified to fit with the new squared-off wing tips. Due to spacing the wings out from the wing root, the landing gear track increased by more than 3 feet. The overall wing span had increased to just over 42 ft 6 inches. The empty weight of the fighter had gone up by nearly half a ton to 12,950 lbs.


http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Seversky-Republic8.html

[Saxman]

Like I've said in other threads, there are a lot of books that have muddied the waters as far as the M goes.  The original design for the P-47M, as I understand it, was to decrease some weight, strap on the new powerplant, and make a very high performance fighter/interceptor.  Probably, Republic determined that this was the most effective method to remove or reduce the number one criticism of the Jug--its climb performance.  So, the long-range escort fuel and heavier firepower were not part of the design concept.  However, after the initial testing, once the aircraft rolled out of the factory, they didn't have the dorsal fin or the pylons as standard equipment.  The airframe was still a D-series airframe, so it had the capability to carry 8 guns, even though the earlier concept was for 6.  Once fielded, the 56th quickly modded the aircraft to carry pylons and added the dorsal fin.  During combat, they continued to normally equip the aircraft with 8 guns.

Here's my question then:

If these were a field mods, then shouldn't the P-47M as modelled in the game have no pylons and 6x.50cal? That was my impression of HTC's take on field mods, regardless of how widespread they were.

[Kuhn]

Here's my question then:

If these were a field mods, then shouldn't the P-47M as modelled in the game have no pylons and 6x.50cal? That was my impression of HTC's take on field mods, regardless of how widespread they were.

Perk the field mods!!   

sorry, i couldn't help myself.