So, do you guys think a Fw190-D9 would be a perk or not?

[brady]

Please do not perk the D-9, as my esteemed brethren have stated the P-51 and the D-9 are very close in performance, so what would be the point?....ethnocentrism?...the same goes for the Ki-84...I don't think their is a single Japanese aircraft produced during the war that saw service that warrants perking, except maby a Baka..or a Kaiten( i know it's a torp )


Brady

------------------

[Hans]

 

From the figures I have seen, the D9 is more than 50 mph faster than a Spit IX below 20,000ft. It also rolls a lot faster and has better armour/survivability. If everything Britain produced after 42 is perked, then the D9 should be too. Or don't the Axis want a level playing field?

And the Typhoon is a peice of junk?  BTW, its my favorite ride along with the La5-FN.  Its a killer in Boom and Zoom, particularily with the seat jacked up and back so you can see better.  Nice high deflection shooting with it.

Plus!  This game's first perk fighter is the British Tempest.

Oh, yeah.  The British sucketh big time in AH.  

I agree with Brady that the Ki-84 Frank isn't a perk ride either.  Its just a normal, latewar fighter on par with the rest of the pack.  The one in WarBirds wasn't an Uber plane.

I guess we are all in agreement that the FW-190-D9 is a regular 1944 fighter, non perk.  Not 1 post in 30 said to perk it.

Hans.

[Jochen]

I think Nath was just trolling  

------------------
jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski

Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.

Sieg oder bolsevismus!

[Wmaker]

 

Originally posted by RAM:
 Me109G10/R5: INTERCEPTOR WITH ADDITION OF A PAIR OF UNDERWING GONDOLAS CARRYING 30-MM MK108 SHORT BARREL CANNON (ahem, no not an K-14)

Hello RAM,

Not all sources are correct and the book you quote isn't very reliable source...I have it too, awsome drawings but the text has lot of errors especially in the 109 section. A fact that applies in all reference material about WW2 aircraft:The older the material is the more errors it has. And all this misinformation has lived very long because almost every new book that got published quoted the older ones.
     I'll give you an example: Bf 109K-4 armed with single Mk 103 and 2x 15mm MG 151 cowlguns. Now, I think most in this thread agree with me that this never happened drawingboard aside  .
     My source is "Messerschmitt Bf 109 F, G,& K Series (isbn# 0-88740-424-3)" by Jochen Prien & Peter Rodeike. My copy is from the second edition published 1995. Section about Bf 109 in "The Great Book of World War II Airplanes" is over 20 years old.
It's based on stuff which is old old old and it just isn't correct. I don't claim that Prien & Rodeike's book is 100% correct but it's THE BEST one around conserning variants of the fighter known as Messerschmitt Bf-109.
     So, what is Bf 109G-10/R5? From Prien & Rodeike's book:"...also widely used by the G-10 was Rustsatz R3 with its 300 liter auxiliary fuel tank beneath the fuselage. The installation of other Rustsätze was planned, such as an ETC 500IXb as R1, two MG 151/20 as R5, two 210mm rocket launching tubes as R7 ..." As you can see it says "planned". How many photos of G-10s have you seen with underwing gondolas anyway RAM ?
    I'll just add that I believe these guys more than anybody on this thread in this matter.

1Wmaker1
Lentolaivue 34

[RAM]

From "Warplanes of the Luftwaffe", ISBN 1-84013--374-5

Apart of mentioning the G10/R5...

"While the 109G6/U4 was armed with two 30-mm Mk108 underwing cannons"

And a bit later:

"the Bf109G10/U4 had provision for a belly gun pack containing two MK108 30mm guns, but this could be replaced by a non-jettisonable fuel tank know as the "inner behalter "

The book was first edited in 1994. I have the 2000 year edition. As you may understand I wont post data that only appears on one of my books but not on the rest (Jane's mentions that configuration too, but I know the reliability you give to Jane's here)

So, then, this was too an "old book"?

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-30-2001).]

[Vermillion]

RAM, but now you have to prove the "most common" part.  


------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:
RAM, but now you have to prove the "most common" part.  

I dont have proof that the 30mm gondolas were widely used, but have little doubt that some numbers had to see action.

Almost all the R or U versions of the 190 and 109 listed in the books I have explicitly say when a modification was only in the form of prototypes (for instance the twin cannon gondolas in the Fw190A8/R1 was tested on the Fw190A5/U12 but only in 2 prototypes...the A8/R1 was another thing and some numbers seem to have seen action). The 109s fitted with Mk108 wing gondolas surely saw action, as the R6s did.  

Anyway you must admit that the 190s lack the chance to get rid of the useless cowl MGs, and the flexibility of the ETC501 rack, wing drop tanks, etc. The combinations we can do with the lacking elements are countless, because a plane could be fitted with various R and U schemes at the same time.

[RAM]

BTW Wmaker, check your sources because they are not so reliable as you say:


 

Originally posted by Wmaker:
My source is "Messerschmitt Bf 109 F, G,& K Series (isbn# 0-88740-424-3)" by Jochen Prien & Peter Rodeike.

.........

So, what is Bf 109G-10/R5? From Prien & Rodeike's book:"...also widely used by the G-10 was Rustsatz R3 with its 300 liter auxiliary fuel tank beneath the fuselage. The installation of other Rustsätze was planned, such as an ETC 500IXb as R1, two MG 151/20 as R5, two 210mm rocket launching tubes as R7 ..."

Your source is wrong. The 109G10 fitted with two MG151/20 wing gondolas were the R6 rustsätze. All 109s fitted with underwing mauser 20mm gondolas, since the F series,were noted as the R6 configuration.

The R5 was the 30mm Mk108 underwing cannons field modification.

I suggest you to give less credit to that source.

[Wmaker]

   

Originally posted by RAM:
From "Warplanes of the Luftwaffe", ISBN 1-84013--374-5

Apart of mentioning the G10/R5...

"While the 109G6/U4 was armed with two 30-mm Mk108 underwing cannons"

And a bit later:

"the Bf109G10/U4 had provision for a belly gun pack containing two MK108 30mm guns, but this could be replaced by a non-jettisonable fuel tank know as the "inner behalter "

The book was first edited in 1994. I have the 2000 year edition. As you may understand I wont post data that only appears on one of my books but not on the rest (Jane's mentions that configuration too, but I know the reliability you give to Jane's here)

So, then, this was too an "old book"?

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-30-2001).]

First of all...we were taking about Bf 109G-10/R5, right?    
   
Well I have "Warplanes of the Luftwaffe" too (Edited by David Donald, right ?). And as I said...many new books quote old ones and misinformation lives on and this one is example of just that! It still lists Bf 109K-4 with possible MK 103 and MG151/15s  
    And what comes to Jane's...I know it's reputation but on WW2 planes and especially german ones I still believe these guys. Janes is good for newer stuff tho, won't deny it.

Before we go to Bf 109G-6/U4 and Bf 109G-10/U4 I'll tell you the sources these guys used while writing "Messerschmitt Bf 109 F, G,& K Series" (straight quote):
               
             "Sources
Messerschimitt delivery plans;conversion kit delivery plans;C-Amt program;GL/C discussion minutes;Aircraft Contstruction Central Commitee discussion notes;Messerschimitt AG discussion notes;Air Division Headquarters Austria - Special Report No.2;Air Industry Austria;Aircraft Type Sheet Bf 109, Chief Technical Air Armaments,as of 1.8.1944;flight logs of test pilots and service pilots;Quartermaster-General's loss reports"

...And what does this book say about Bf 109G-6/u4...(straight quote):

"From the summer of 1943 WNF delivered a considerable number of G-6 aircraft in which the MG 151/20 engine-mounted cannon had been replaced by a 30mm MK 108; this installation received the designation G-6/U4. It is unsertain to what extent machines with Umbausatz 4 were also equipped with two additional MK 108 cannon in underwing gondolas. Minutes of the RLM discussions concerning special measures for the air defence of the Reich held on 9 August 1943 reveal that the Messerschmitt AG had been instructed to begin planning for the earliest possible change-over from the installation of Rustsatz R6 to two MK 108s. this scheme does not appear to have proceeded much beyond the planning stage however, as beyond test machines, no other production aircraft are known to have been so armed. Still, the conversion was listed in an aircraft type sheet of the Chief of Technical Air Armanents dated August 1, 1944 as G6/U6."

Conclusion: We have G6/U4 in AH and G6/U6 never entered production.

And then we have the Bf-109G-10/U4...Again, this book says (straight quote): "The stantard engine-mounted MG 151/20 cannon was in many instances replaced by a 30mm Mk 108, the installation receiving the designation U4."

I'm VERY baffled with this "belly gun pack". If you RAM or someone else have pics/drawings or anything about this I would sure love to see them...What ever this thing you quoting here is it surtainly isn't U4...

Conclusion: Messerschmitt Bf-109G-10/U4 indeed is in AH.

RAM SAID:
"Your source is wrong. The 109G10 fitted with two MG151/20 wing gondolas were the R6 rustsätze. All 109s fitted with underwing mauser 20mm gondolas, since the F series,were noted as the R6 configuration.

The R5 was the 30mm Mk108 underwing cannons field modification."

This is arguable between two sources but I still believe Prien & Rodeike's list is correct.
Prien & Rodeike's list for G-10:

U4 :MK 108 replaced MG 151/20
R2 :Rb 50/30 camera
R3 :300 litre extra fueltank
R5 :two MG 151/20 in wing gondolas
R6 :a PKS 12 single-axis autopilot which automatically controlled the aircraft's rudder, whereas the elevator and ailerons were operated manually by the pilot.

Now here comes the misinformation:

Jean-Claude Merret lists the following:
R1 ETC bombrack or 503
R2 MW 50
R3 300 litre droptank
R6 MG 151-cannons in wing gondolas
R7 BR-21 rocketlauncher tubes in the wings
R8 BSK-16 camera in the left wing

I believe Prien & Rodeike got it right because of the information of surtain finnish book called "Messerschmitt BF 109 and Germany's war economy (english translation)". Author of this book, Hannu Valtonen is the director of Finland's Aviation museum and has also done a ton of research for his many books and crushes many myths conserning Germany's economy and production during the war for example. This is a translation from that book conserning those two lists:

"It looks like the first list is more correct, since the latter is missing reconnasance version which was built without a doubt"

     So, RAM I still stand behind my sources and advice you to buy Prien & Rodeike's book and to double check your sources.

1Wmaker1
Lentolaivue 34


[This message has been edited by Wmaker (edited 01-30-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Wmaker (edited 01-30-2001).]

[fd ski]

If 190D9 isn't perked, i don't understand why Tempest should be... Only few mph faster.. don't fly well high... what's up ladies ?  


------------------
Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF

Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998

Northolt Wing Headquarters

[Zigrat]

i gotta agree with fd-ski

190-d9 should be a perk a/c, but low perk (i would say 100 pts)

where as tempest mabye 200

4 hispanos is reason why  

[StSanta]

Heh zig, when you start paying, perhaps you'll have a say, you anti D) person. I shall fight you on the beaches...  .

Perk the D9, and you'll have to perk G10 and P-51 and YAK.

Good way to go IMHO; then we'll fly the lesser a/c.

------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch

[Wmaker]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:
RAM, but now you have to prove the "most common" part.    

There is some controversity concerning this issue. And by asking RAM how many photos of G-10s with underwing gondolas I didn't mean that they weren't used. The book I mentioned has one photo of G-10 with gondolas. It's just that they weren't used that often...
They still have a right to be in AH as a viable load out option...no question about it.



[This message has been edited by Wmaker (edited 01-30-2001).]

[Fishu]

Yup, if D9, without or with mw50 gets perked, P-51D should be perked as well
(lets not forget N1K2 as well, numbers and flight models and...  )

[F4UDOA]

My question is this.

What defines a "perk"?

Is it productions numbers?
No, C-hog and C205 are exceptions to that rule. Dora is less than 1,000 I believe.

Is it speed?
No, 109G10 is at 450MPH and 370Mph on the deck. Typhoon is 375mph on the deck. Both faster than the P-51D at their best alts. contrary to popular belief.

Is it firepower?
No, already 2 4 hipano birds in AH and countless other 4 cannon birds. A8, A5 and NIK2.

Is it late war design?
Ding, ding, Winner!
AH is currently in a no later than mid 1944 planeset. The NIK2, P-51D, P-47D30, BF109G-10 and F4U-1D/C are all early to Mid 1944 birds. Anything after that time starts to fall into the true late war design category.

So when was the FW190D-9 built and shipped??
I do not know, I am only asking?? I think that is your answer.