Widewing, Could you help me Out?

[Vermillion]

Widewing, I was wondering if you could help me out since you seem to have alot of information and contacts in the classic aircraft community.

For a long time, I have been really interested in Soviet and Japanese combat aircraft of WWII, but sadly they are quite difficult to find much solid data or information on.

One particular point of interest of mine, and an issue we have discussed on this board many times, is late war Japanese aircraft powered by the Nakajima Ha-45 engine. In particular both the N1K2-J and the Ki-84.

Both aircraft seem to have particularly poor performance (particularly speed and climb) given their weight, and the fact that their engines should be producing between 1,800hp-2,000hp depending on varient.

Its long been my theory(and many others that participate in these discussions) that the poor performance during the flight testing in the late phases of the war was due to very poor quality of fuels (in particular the use of around 80-90 octane fuel, instead of the normal 100 octane avgas).

In support of this theory, I have read several accounts of Ki84's that were tested in the US after the war that far exceeded what we typically see as "max performance" figures. For instance in Francillons "Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War" page 236:

 

As demonstrated by a captured aircraft restored at the Middletown Air Depot, Pennsylvania, in the spring of 1946, the Ki-84's performance was truely spectacular: at a weight of 7,490 lbs, considered representative of combat operations, the aircraft reached a speed of 427mph at 20,000ft using War Emergency Power.  This speed exceeded that of the North American P-51D-25-NA Mustang and Republic P-47D-35-RA Thunderbolt at the same altitude by 3 mph and 22mph respectively.

This information is alluded too in several other books, and almost directly repeated in two extensive magazine articles that I have, including Air Classics, October 77 issue; and Air Combat, winter 73.  These seem to indicate that the portions of the testing was also done at Dayton, and from what I understand it was done by the TAIC units.

That is where the information trail stops however  

I have contacted both the US Air Force Museum archives, and the Naval Aircraft musuem archives. The Air Force Museum's Senior Researcher (whom I spoke too on the telephone) told me that no flight test data or records from these tests or tests of the N1K2-J in their collection, exist any longer. I recieved no replies from the Naval Musuem.

Do you have any pertinent information, or any suggestions of anyone whom I may contact concerning these issues?

Thanks

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[brady]

Vermillion ...I know this was not addressed to me but I feel your pain..in fact my need for knowledge took me to looking up old technical manuals for data on Japanese Ammo, and weapons. This may be a Idea U could ask the purveyors of the various Big museums what us Government tech manuals were devoted to such topics...as I did for the ammo/gun data..also don't forget about our brothers in England for years I have been corresponding with the Imperial war Museum in London and the National Maritime museum in England on all kinds of Info/photo quests the are on the internet now days and I have gotten some really cool stuff from them . Also they can point out various reference sources..My posting on the various Japanese Guns was aided by them they provided a long list of ISBN #'s for me  , on that subject some of which I was able to find through book searches and order.
  Another thought , and one I used a couple years ago on the 190D-13, is to call the curators of the museums wear the George and the Frank live today and ask them the above question.
  In the Aero series book on the Ki-84 and the N1K2-J they list the following museums for these aircraft:

(N1K2-J)
Champlin Fighter Museum TEL. 1-602-830-4540

National Museum of Naval Avation.Tel.1-850-452-3604 or 1-850-452-3606 E-mail: Naval.Museum@smtp.cnet.navy.mil

USAF Museum 1-937-255-3284

Misho Park 0895-72-3212(Japan)

Ki-84
Tokko Heiwa Kinen-Kan, Chiran o993-83-2525(Japan)

 I have had the pleasure of speaking with the curators of various private and government Museums, they share our passion for this subject and at the vary least are able to point U in the right direction, the official documents exist..somewhere U just half to dig...  

Brady


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[This message has been edited by brady (edited 01-30-2001).]

[Widewing]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:
Widewing, I was wondering if you could help me out since you seem to have alot of information and contacts in the classic aircraft community.

Thanks

I would be happy to see what I can turn up. I will pass your post on to Warren Bodie and Barrett Tillman. Please be a bit patient, as I came home from the office today with the opening symtoms of the flu. Tomorrow, I will paste your post into an e-mail and send it along.

My reading confirms that Wright Field tested the Ki-84. However, I recall that the aircaft was stripped of its weapons and paint. Either way, there is little doubt that the aircraft offered much better performance using 100/130 avgas as opposed to the 87 octane available in Japan during the war. I have also read that the Nakajima Ha-45 engine was not the slightest bit tolerant of detonation.

One place that you could inquire for AAF test reports is the National Archives. Most of the old reports were photographed and stored on microfilm. Maxwell AFB is currently the location of Air Force Historical Research Agency. You can contact them by phone or e-mail at:

Phone: (334) 953-2395 or
AFHRANEWS@maxwell.af.mil

Thier web site is located at:

 http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/

Their materials on hand include "historical monographs and studies; oral history interview transcripts; End-Of-Tour Reports; personal papers of retired general officers and other Air Force personnel; reference materials on the early period of military aviation; course materials of the Air Corps Tactical School of the 1920s and 1930s; working documents of various joint and combined commands; miscellaneous documents or collections of various organizations, including the US Army, British Air Ministry, and the German Air Force and USAF individual aircraft record cards," among literally tons of misc. materials.

I will get back to you as soon as I hear anything.

My regards,

Widewing
 

[Widewing]

A quick follow up.

This is some of what is available at the National Archives. The USAAF Engineering Division documents are a treasure chest of flight test data. However, it is all on microfilm. The good news is that copies of every roll can be purchased. The bad news is that you must know what roll(s) you need.

RECORDS OF THE ENGINEERING DIVISION AND ITS PREDECESSORS
1916-51
5,212 lin. ft. and 400 rolls of microfilm

History: Airplane Engineering Department, Aviation Section, Office of the Chief Signal Officer, U.S. Army, established October 13, 1917. Redesignated Airplane Engineering Division and transferred to Bureau of Aircraft Production, August 31, 1918. Redesignated Technical Division, January 1, 1919. Redesignated Engineering Division, Air Service, May 13, 1919. Redesignated Materiel Division, Air Corps, October 15, 1926. Redesignated Materiel Center (MC), Army Air Forces (AAF), March 6, 1942. Redesignated Air Force Materiel Command (AFMC), by General Order 16, MC, April 6, 1942. New organization, designated Engineering Division, established under AFMC by Notice 103, AFMC, June 7, 1942. AFMC redesignated successively Materiel Command, April 15, 1943; AAF Materiel Command, June 15, 1944; AAF Materiel and Services Command, summer 1944; AAF Technical Service Command, September 1, 1944; Air Technical Service Command, July 1, 1945; and Air Materiel Command (AMC), March 13, 1946. Engineering Division transferred from AMC to Air Research and Development Command (ARDC) by Notice 77, AMC, April 3, 1951. ARDC redesignated Air Force Systems Command (AFSC); and Engineering Division redesignated Aeronautical Systems Division of AFSC, effective April 1, 1961, by Letter AFOMO 590M, Department of the Air Force (DAF), March 20, 1961.

Note: For administrative histories of the air force organization at the highest echelon, SEE 18.1, 18.2, 18.5, 18.7, 341.1, and 341.2.

Textual Records: Central decimal correspondence, 1916-49 (1,774 ft.). Research and development project contract files, 1921-51 (3,438 ft.). Microfilm copy of research and development technical reports, 1928-51 (400 rolls).

My regards,

Widewing

[-towd_]

wow wildwing you are truly wonderful. sorry i just had to say it .

[Vermillion]

Hehe maybe we can all pitch in to pay for the reproduction costs of all 400 rolls of microfilm  

I would love to see that data.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[brady]

  So I make the check payable to Widewing???  

Brady


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[This message has been edited by brady (edited 01-31-2001).]