It takes 2 to HO....

[CAP1]

There were some situations in WW2 where HOs were approved of, or even ordered to occur:

1) The Luftwaffe fighters defending the Reich against the 8th USAAF soon found out that the return fire of massed rear-facing 0.50" Brownings usually shredded them something cruel during the approach, and that the bomber's armour was mainly disposed to protect the crew from the shot-from-behind. The 109s and 190s took to flying in large line-abreast formations and used a head-on approach to a) hit the least-armoured part of the bombers b) maximize the damage done by each hitting round by adding the closing speed to its velocity c) use the fear of collision to cause the bombers to break formation d) reduce the time they were exposed to the bombers' return fire. The tactic was attempted at least twice (and definitely succeeded on the first attack) against the bomber force that carried out Mission 250, the 8th USAAF's first mass attack on Berlin, 6th March 1944. Individual LW pilots had already worked out that this was the most survivable approach against a B-17 or B-24; which is why the later models of both were fitted with twin-gun turrets under and in the nose respectively to supplement the single-gun 'lash-up' mountings carried previously.we're not really talking bomer vs fighter....but since you choose to go there.
 bombers had very little if any armor. they couldn't afford the weight. bombers flew in staggered box formations. in large formations, there was virtually no angle for a luftwaffe pilot to attack any single bomber without having at least a half dozen guns on him. none. zero. nada. zilch. zippo. this is even more true when you take into account the "G" models with the chin turrets.  b24's were just as deadly.
 this is why the smarter luftwaffe pilots simply came screaming through the formation, take whatever shots they could get, and get the hell outta dodge. if they damaged a bomber, and it started to fall out of formation, they they swarmed that one.
 they also became very adept at spotting "new" b-17 pilots.....and they possibly newer crews, and/or distracted or out of position, making that particular bomber a slightly safer target. they spotted the new pilots by noting if a bomber was "jockeying" to maintain his position in the box. some newer pilots, even with all of the training they got back in the states, had never flown in tight formation before....and this made them somewhat nervous, plus the turbulence of the aircraft in front of them. if they dropped back far enough, they were swarmed. if they drifted off to the side, they got out of range of the others in the box.

2) RAF fighter pilots were taught to turn towards any attacker enjoying an advantage, in order to make the bandit's firing solution more difficult and hopefully induce the attacker into entering a turn-fight. It was dinned into him NEVER to turn away. The result was that the merge often had an element of the HO about it.

3) Any fighter pilot unlucky enough to find himself directly in a HO merge against an enemy risked eventual destruction by turning away before reaching firing range; he'd expose himself to a snap shot without being able to reply, or lose energy and his opponent would then be in a better position to manoeuvre onto his six. And his blood would likely be up, of course, and he'd be damned if he was going to 'chicken out' before the other guy . . .i believe this tactic was used heavily by the japanese against the AVG pilots. their aircraft were out dated compared to the p40's so the only chance they had, was either catch our guys by total surprise, or play chicken with them. the first to turn usually lost. 

The HO will be a feature of of air combat all the time people continue to fight each other in the air. Nuff said.

 

    

 i understand where you're coming from. i understand that a lot of players like to compare this to real life. i have in the past been very sarcastic about that too.....in this thread no less.

 but here's another way to look at this whole argument.

 when any combat pilot entered into combat for the first time back then, they had some training. it was normally the best available at the time, and under the current circumstances.
 due to lack of experience, some of these brave souls were almost forced into situations to have to try to ho their enemy, just to even have the very slimmest chance of survival.

 so here's the REALLY great part. WE, as a community get to learn something that all of our heroes may not have been able to learn. WE get to actually LEARN the acm that they never had time, or opportunity to learn, as they couldn't risk doing "hey, i should try XXX", and see if that gets me 'round for a good shot. why? because that very move may have killed him.
 in this sim, we get to try all those things. we're given an opportunity that our heros never got. and we should take advantage of that, and learn. and of course have friggin fun without being malicious to others in here.

[CAP1]

LOL!!! Gamer. No I have always been a dog fighter, that is what I've always thought these games are about. Getting in close, so close you can see the parts coming off! In the early days... over 10 years ago.. I wasn't very good at it and calmed my frustration by jumping in a buff, or helping capture a base with a goon run.

Your information is useless because unlike war, we get new planes after every flight, and we never, ever die. Seeing as we don't have to worry about flying that wreck home, or maybe bailing and becoming a POW it changes how people fly. Crashing into another plane doesn't hurt, and may give you the kill if you get enough round into him first. This is what drives a big percentage of the "gamers" these days.

I'm more like you than you'd think. While I have no illusion that this game is anything like war, I do look to have the illusion of the fight, the struggle, the tactics, and the maneuvering that a real fight "might" have had, and HOing to negate all of those possibilities is just foolish and a waste of time.

i am without fail always close enough to see parts comin off.

 mostly because they're mine. 

[Kuhn]

I Like Carly Simon.   

[CAP1]

I Like Carly Simon.   

 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<  is listening to the soft parade right now. 

[TnDep]

Very good point Cap, I see people who fly temps and fly in ho and extend to come back ho and extend again.  I guess if that what floats their boat ok but for me I am spending my $15 dollars a month to learn ACM and do as many 1on1's as possible and watch videos of the fights.  Still getting my butt handed to me quite a bit but that's part of the process. 

As far as on topic, It only takes 1 to ho.  I've gotten pretty good at avoiding them and my favorite move if I have the E is to do a circle around their plane and they never land a shot.

i understand where you're coming from. i understand that a lot of players like to compare this to real life. i have in the past been very sarcastic about that too.....in this thread no less.

 but here's another way to look at this whole argument.

 when any combat pilot entered into combat for the first time back then, they had some training. it was normally the best available at the time, and under the current circumstances.
 due to lack of experience, some of these brave souls were almost forced into situations to have to try to ho their enemy, just to even have the very slimmest chance of survival.

 so here's the REALLY great part. WE, as a community get to learn something that all of our heroes may not have been able to learn. WE get to actually LEARN the acm that they never had time, or opportunity to learn, as they couldn't risk doing "hey, i should try XXX", and see if that gets me 'round for a good shot. why? because that very move may have killed him.
 in this sim, we get to try all those things. we're given an opportunity that our heros never got. and we should take advantage of that, and learn. and of course have friggin fun without being malicious to others in here.

[Wagger]

so here's the REALLY great part. WE, as a community get to learn something that all of our heroes may not have been able to learn. WE get to actually LEARN the acm that they never had time, or opportunity to learn, as they couldn't risk doing "hey, i should try XXX", and see if that gets me 'round for a good shot. why? because that very move may have killed him.
 in this sim, we get to try all those things. we're given an opportunity that our heros never got. and we should take advantage of that, and learn. and of course have friggin fun without being malicious to others in here.

Now lets look at mans history and see how well this will work. 

1.  Let see how many wars have there been.

2.  Don't throw rocks at each other.  An knot on your head the size of an egg.

3.  Taking drugs are bad for you.  Wondering where you are the morning after.

4.  When your mother is whipping your butt you hear, "quit moving or it will hurt more".

5.  Son don't walk on that chain link fence.  Yes it does hurt when you straddle it.

6.  Make sure and put on your shoes.  Yes that scorpion sting hurts like hell.

Yes and I have passed on my wisdom to my child.  Oh that had to hurt.  Damn Chain linked fence.

[rough_wood]

I realise this won't change a thing. It is human nature to stick with what was said even when proven wrong. Books have been written about it, some of the greatest minds have great quotes out there saying this. This post will mostly be a waste of my time, I realise that.

I play this game for fun, like most everyone else here. Yes, fun will be different for everyone. For me, I like a challenge, I like to learn, I like to improve. Nothing in this game is more frustrating than to fly 5-10 minutes, finding action, just to get HOd. It's not the K/D loss, it's the wasted time. It's like searching for a deliciouse brownie, taking a bite, and finding out it's a dog turd. It tastes bad (I assume) and I wasted my time doing it.

Imagine a game of chess, a great, strategic game to get good at using knowledge, adaptability, planning, many great skills. Say there was one move that the first player could do which immediately creates a win or draw. The second player can also make this move, but both can only do it on the initial move. Wouldn't it be super pathetic to take such a great challenge and throw it away with that move? The person doing it shows their weak, immature, primitive lack of charactor while losing a great chance to challenge themselves and get better at something.

There are many types, but a major division will be those who play to learn and improve, and those who play only to get kills, only to "win". To me, those guys ALWAYS lose, in multiple ways. Not just in the game, but also in life.

For those who only play to win, they could possibly have more fun joining the special olympics.
For those who like to aim straight at a merging opponent and shoot them down, maybe they could set up their joystick to work as a mouse, and go around their desktop double clicking icons.

To play just to put that circle on another object relatively stationary to your plane of motion is very pathetic.

A 2 year old can do these things. Go get a fisher price toy with red buttons and use your hand eye coordination to push it.

That's how much skill it takes to HO. I could teach my 5 year old neice to HO, and that is not an exageration.

It indicates weakness, and a need to feel good at something because in general they have few life skills and a low self esteem. They are unguided and probably aren't good at setting self improving goals in life.

What is a HO?
--------------------------------------
The definition will differ with some, for me, this is a HO:

Flying at the frontal quadrant of another plane, and during or before the initial merge, taking the shot.

That includes flying head on but at say 100m offset, only to make high deflection immediately to shoot their side.

It includes shooting at someone who COULD (but doesn't necessarily) shoot at you but is choosing to take a non collision course to create a merge.

Mainly it is flying in with the intent to shoot someone flying in general toward the HOr(their velocity in relation to HOr current location), who knows you're there, and is setting up a merge, and yet the HOr intends to take that shot regardless of what the merger does.

The main thing, is you can HO while not being exactly crosshair to crosshair. You can HO someone who doesn't HO you.
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There are some situations where it's just gunna happen.
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Say you have an enemy 1.5 to 2 back, they are faster, you have to turn into them. Just about the time you're done turning around is around the time to decide to shoot. Normally I'd prefer not to shoot, but in this situation, whether I'm the chaser or the guy turning around, I'll tend to take the shot knowing the other guy will shoot 90% of the time. As far as I'm concerned once a guy is that close behind you, jockeying for position has already occured. Either way this is bound to happen.

It's a gangbang, of course the outnumbered guy will HO most often.

I also always HO bombers when I'm in a fighter.

A high con over my field has huge E advantage over me, I will often find myself in a situation where I have to turn up at him while he dives at me, and I will HO if I think they're gunna shoot.

I will HO a guy after something strategic. If a JUG is making a run on the CV I will HO so he doesn't take it down. I will HO someone trying to pork my base.
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But I won't HO a fighter on fighter dogfight situation. It's below people mature enough to learn self respect.

A HO isn't so much a head on, as a derogatory term for someone who takes the easy way out, and tries to avoid the fight, in the form of shooting on the intial merge from the frontal quardrant of the enemy.

I understand they need the "kill" to feel adequate, but it's dissapointing that I have to waste my time to find out the red icon was a juvenile that sucks at life.

It is classless to HO.

[The Fugitive]

here here !!!   

[rough_wood]

I have more videos on my youtube channel, (Dont watch movie or movie0001, they're just tests) and plan to make more after all these tests are over. Most of them are proof of concept, so none are super clean perfect youtube vids.

This one shows pretty well how I fly. The video doesn't show it, but I had the opportunity to HO any of those initial 3 except the P47. I avoided the HOs and they still shot at me. It being a 3 on 1 soon to have 2 more cons aproach, I went ahead and HOd one of them back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdcGv8KnBhU

Sorry for no sound, it was my first video and the film is lost.

Normally I try to avoid head on shots even after initial merge, but sometimes it just happens.

In this video I could tell what noobs they were for HOn me so I changed my tactics and sure enough I broke in a way that made the Spit commit to a lame move and he augered lol.

My point is, this entire adrenaline pumping night maker could have never happened if one of those HOtards pinged my pilot or took an elevator and killed my engine etc. Tell me putting a dot on a near relative stationary target is more fun than what I got to do here.

[CAP1]

pretty dam nicely written dude. 


onlything i find a flaw with........i avoid ho'ing buffs too..it makes me too easy to hit. i prefer slashing attacks, come from their 10-2 hi...very hi angle, or if i suspect they're close to their drop point, i'll climb right up their tailpipes.

[Bear76]

I bet this conversation would not go near as far if it was held by the fighter pilots of WWII.  If they lived it was a viable option.  If they are dead it just does not matter does it.  This thread is one of those nightmares that just will not go away.

Then why did you dig it up again?

[TnDep]

Nicely Written and spot on! 

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But I won't HO a fighter on fighter dogfight situation. It's below people mature enough to learn self respect.

A HO isn't so much a head on, as a derogatory term for someone who takes the easy way out, and tries to avoid the fight, in the form of shooting on the intial merge from the frontal quardrant of the enemy.

I understand they need the "kill" to feel adequate, but it's dissapointing that I have to waste my time to find out the red icon was a juvenile that sucks at life.

It is classless to HO.