KI-84

[Karnak]

I dug of some numbers from a book and they are different than the ones I guesstimated from memory, but they don't separate out Ki-84-I versions.

Total production ammounted to 3,514 aircraft, including 3,416 aircraft built by Nakajima Hikoko KK (two Ki-84 prototypes, 83 Ki-84 service trials aircraft, 42 Ki-84 pre-production aircraft, 3,288 Ki-84-I and Ki-84-II production aircraft, and one Ki-113 prototype), 94 Ki-84-I production aircraft and one Ki-116 prototype built by Mansyu Hikoki Seizo KK, and three Ki-106 prototypes built by Tachikawa Hikoki KK.

The number of Ki-84-Ia that I usually see listed in sources is about 3,000 total and I've never seen a listing of many Ki-84-II built which would still leave over 300-400 Ki-84-Ib and Ic aircraft, though we know very, very few Ic aircraft were built and none saw action.

As to Krusty's claim, I think he'd have to give some evidence of that claim beyond hyperbolic exaggerations of the state of Japanese military structuring.  We know of quite a few late war Japanese aircraft built in lower numbers than we are talking about that saw some action, the Ki-102 and B7A1 for example.

The thing that always strikes me about the Japanese war effort is how they can be in one case so extremely professional about it and in another case so horrifyingly amateur.

[Krusty]

Don't turn this on me. Every book, blurb, source, reference I've ever read has said the 4x20mm never saw much or any service.

Don't toss around your favorite catch phrases of hyperbole and exaggeration.

That wasn't the reason WHY I said none saw service, simply an example of many reasons.

[Bodhi]

Don't turn this on me. Every book, blurb, source, reference I've ever read has said the 4x20mm never saw much or any service.

Don't toss around your favorite catch phrases of hyperbole and exaggeration.

That wasn't the reason WHY I said none saw service, simply an example of many reasons.

You can stop your crying and spinning.  All I wanted was for you to back up your statement.  Cripes, you're like a two year old when anyone questions your statements.

[Wmaker]

According to Busa, roughly 100 KI-84b's were built. One Sentai (104th) had them for sure (photographic evidence).

[Ruah]

All flying machines were used in one way or another unless they were broken or otherwise unable to fly.  This does not mean of course that they saw combat except to be shot down, straffed, or used in tokkotai (special attack units) which I suppose do not count as combat for AHII purposes.

[Karnak]

All flying machines were used in one way or another unless they were broken or otherwise unable to fly.  This does not mean of course that they saw combat except to be shot down, straffed, or used in tokkotai (special attack units) which I suppose do not count as combat for AHII purposes.

Ki-84s weren't used for kamikaze attacks, though the did escort them at times.   The Japanese were well aware that it was one of their best fighters and shouldn't be expended that way.

[Krusty]

All flying machines were used in one way or another unless they were broken or otherwise unable to fly.  This does not mean of course that they saw combat except to be shot down, straffed, or used in tokkotai (special attack units) which I suppose do not count as combat for AHII purposes.

Not always the case. Just because something is built does not mean it is distributed, or sees action, or service. That's even true today with some 4th Generation fighters.

The famous example in AH is the Ta152. Depending on the sources, upwards of 70-90 were built and ready-and-waiting, but only 12 actually got out from the factory and saw any service. Another example is the Ki-61 production line sat at a standstill for the better part of a year because their inline engine factory/supply was bombed into oblivion. The ended up building the Ki100 from the spare fuselages already built and waiting to be used.

You'll have to ignore Bodhi. He likes to post insults and taunts at me any chance he gets.

My comments were not only predicated on the sad production state of Japanese industry during the war, but of an overall set of circumstances. Sad production being only one of the many.

Wmaker says 104th Sentai... I wonder if Busa was referring to this:

http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/joe_brennan/order_of_battle.htm
(another photo of the same line with the Ki can be seen here:)
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/2540/ki84cs8.jpg

Apparently they only had 40 servicable, and to me the photos at the bottom of the page seem like a graveyard or scrapyard (planes appear to be in disarray). This was in Manchuria, I think. Sometime before that they were flying older outdated planes, so the jump from that to Ki-84 is rather surprising, given the order of battle of their fellow Manchurian units. There are also a number of profiles for the 104 Sentai flying the 2x20mm Ki-84. I ran across several of these when doing a Ki-84 skin, once. These pictures may have been a test or developmental experiment to try using the 4x20mm Ki84 in combat. What good it would do against the Soviet Air force, when the extra weaponry was more needed on US bombers, I don't know.

The Japanese, like the Americans, British, Soviets, and Germans, built a number of planes in configurations that never really saw any combat or service. Were they built? Sure, some where. Does that mean any of them are worthy of inclusion in AH, or even meet the criteria for inclusion into AH? In most cases the answer is "no."

[Wmaker]

What good it would do against the Soviet Air force, when the extra weaponry was more needed on US bombers, I don't know.

104th Sentai was flying against China based B-29s of the XX Bomber Command from Manchuria.

[Karnak]

Another example is the Ki-61 production line sat at a standstill for the better part of a year because their inline engine factory/supply was bombed into oblivion. The ended up building the Ki100 from the spare fuselages already built and waiting to be used.

It took Kawasaki less than twelve weeks to get the design changes done and the Ki-100 in production.  They didn't sit there with the Japanese wondering stupidly what to do with them, the Ki-61's lead designer frantically modified his design to get a radial on them as fast as possible.

You continue to pull stuff out of your bellybutton and state it as fact.  The Japanese did a lot of dumb things, true, but they were not the incompetent bafoons you make them out to be.

[MiloMorai]

The famous example in AH is the Ta152. Depending on the sources, upwards of 70-90 were built and ready-and-waiting, but only 12 actually got out from the factory and saw any service.

Of the known 43 WNr, at least 17 of those saw operations with combat units.