Author Topic: Turning point of the War.  (Read 5996 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2009, 05:37:26 AM »
Siege of Syracuse - Peloponnesian War

PTO WW2: none.  The end was a forgone conclusion after December 7th.
ETO WW2: Can't choose just one... BoB, El Alamein, Stalingrad would be my picks.  Normandy?  Not a chance, the war was already over for Germany.

In most cases, I think too much emphasis is placed on so-called turning points.  The result of most wars I have studied is a process of initial strategic advantage winning out over whatever tactical variance might have made things interesting at the beginning.




I would say BoB in the Western Front and Battle of Kursk in the Eastern Front.  I would almost tend to agree with you that in the PTO, there really wasn't one since Japan had no real hope of winning the war (nor was that their intent) but I would still say Midway as it proved Yamamoto correct in that Japan will only enjoy success for 6 months.


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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2009, 07:10:02 AM »
As for WW1, the only turning point I've discovered in my reading is the British and French officer corps no longer tolerating the shooting of surrendering Germans (for much of the war it was a coin toss whether you'd be a PoW or shot/bayoneted).  Once word spread into the German lines that there was sausage and they wouldn't shoot you, German soldiers began surrendering much more readily and willingly.  Or maybe the Battle of Jutland was a turning point because with the German Navy's failure to break out of the Baltic, the food situation would become dire so quickly...which leads to the above.
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Offline Saxman

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2009, 08:12:03 AM »
The Siege of Vicksburg had far more significant repercussions on the course of the war than Gettysburg. The Union could have lost Gettysburg and still won the war. The armies in the East had been getting knocked around for the better part of three years, anyway, so it's not like news of yet ANOTHER defeat would have come as a shock. Additionally, Lee never REALLY had the logistical capability to legitimately threaten Washington. Anyway, news of the defeat at Gettysburg would have been followed within 24 hours of the FAR more important victory at Vicksburg, cutting the Confederacy in two and gaining total control of the Mississippi (a target of major strategic value the British realized during the War of 1812, if not EARLIER). The only thing a defeat at Gettysburg would have done is likely have Grant brought East that much sooner and he would have replaced Meade outright as commanding general of the Army of the Potomac, not been placed over him as commander of ALL Union armies in the field.

As for WWII, I would rate Guadalcanal over Midway. True, the Americans sunk four of Japan's front-line carriers at Midway, but many of her experienced pilots were still on the ships rearming when they were attacked. The idea then that most of her best pilots were lost during this action is flawed at best, because MOST of them actually abandoned ship with the rest of the survivors, and were picked up by the escorts to be returned to service. It was Guadalcanal where the strength of Japanese air power was finally broken.
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Offline alskahawk

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2009, 10:06:13 AM »
 For the Germans in WW2 the turning point was actually the failure of Barbarossa. The Wehrmacht and their allies lost nearly a million men in 1941. The Germans never really recovered.

 For the allies in the Pacific. Midway. The Japanese invincibility was gone along with their best aircraft carriers. Guadalcanal showed the Japanese that the Allies were not going to walk away. It would be a death struggle. And as Yamato stated; (paraphrased) We will run free for six months. But I fear all we have done is awaken a sleeping bear. He knew that Japan could not win the war. So you could make the argument for Pearl Harbor.
 
 In the American Civil war. You could make an argument that the war was lost from the beginning. The south had no real hard industry to speak of. Their only hope was a quick decisive war. When that didn't happen and the prospect of a long war loomed the Confederacy's chances of winning fell dramatically. As for Gettysburg being the decisive point, look at how the campaign started. General Lee took the fight north to give the southern farmers/people a break. The cutting off of the Mississippi was strategic victory. As Saxman said. "The Union could have lost the siege of Vicksburg and still won the war".

 In WW1 the German generals knew they were in trouble when they were fighting on both fronts. Some of them thought they still had a chance when Russia fell. Then the Americans came in, and they knew that they had nothing left.

  "We were getting our butts kicked until Baghdad Bob vanished.  Then we were winning.  It was an amazing reversal." Winning? Don't confuse military victories with actual victory. Military prowess was never an issue in this conflict.

Offline Angus

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2009, 11:25:54 AM »
Turning point with the highest degree's would be late 1942/early 1943, where the Axis start bleeding/retreating on all fronts, Russia, N-Africa, and in the Pacific.
In Russia, they loose their goal of Stalingrad, Simultaniously they get completely kicked out of N-Africa, and the USA is growing stronger in the Pacific.
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Offline Saxman

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2009, 11:34:57 AM »
As Saxman said. "The Union could have lost the siege of Vicksburg and still won the war".

The Union could have lost Gettysburg and still won the war.

 :P
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Shifty

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2009, 01:02:36 PM »
OMG!  I can not believe that i did that.

I can.

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Offline Nemisis

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2009, 01:22:00 PM »
Gettysburg-American Civil War (east)
Normandy- WWII (eastern front), Stalingrad (western front)
Vicksburg- American Civil war (west)
The Battle of Saratoga 1777- American Rev. war
The Battle of Quebec- French and Indian War

Antitem-U.S. Civil War (east): at Gettysburg, the C.S. were defeated, but not beaten. They could have won had England and France recognized the C.S. and forced recognition on the U.S.A. ending the war in favor of the C.S.A.

Chatanooga-U.S. civil war (west)-had the U.S. been halted infront of Chatanooga, they would have had a hard time going forward. Had they been halted, they could have added Kenteucky, and Tennesse the the Union, but may not have been able to invade Georgia.

Op. Barbarossa WW2 (east)-had the Germans taken stalingrad, the bood they payed might have been worth it as the Russians had suffered just as badly untill the German army inside Stalingrad was cut off, and starved of supplies and reinforcments.

Pearl Harbor WW2 (Pacific)-with the U.S. entry into the war, the tide was turned. Japan could have kicked the U.S. of the Hawaiian Islands if they'd screwed up bad enough, but they couldn't have beaten the U.S. And U.S. forces fought in Africa, and the Western front. Lets face it, the U.S. and England out weighed Japan, AND Germany together. There is almost no way the U.S. could have lost the war unless Germany had continued, and beaten the U.S. to the A-bomb, or if Japan had had built another nuke, and had long range bombers.

Gotta agree about Saratoga.

And Plains of Abraham- Had Montclam beaten the British, the war might have been ended soon after,  the british having failed to out flank the French line of forts.
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2009, 01:33:18 PM »
USA didn't need the UK to outweigh Japan + Germany.
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Offline Nemisis

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2009, 01:36:44 PM »
Had Germany not invaded Russia, it would have been closer to even.
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2009, 03:07:14 PM »
Quote
"In Umm Qasr, the fighting is fierce and we have inflicted many damages.Ê The stupid enemy, the Americans and British, failed completely. ÊThey're not making any penetration."
Quote
"The Americans are not there. ÊThey're not in Baghdad. ÊThere are no troops there. ÊNever. ÊThey're not at all."

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"They are not any place. ÊThey are on the move everywhere. ÊThey are a snake moving in the desert. ÊThey hold no place in Iraq. ÊThis is an illusion."
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"We butchered the force present at the airport. ÊWe have retaken the airport! ÊThere are no Americans there!"
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 03:11:56 PM by Rich46yo »
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Offline Unit791

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2009, 06:20:39 PM »
WW2 definitely had a turning point at Midway, think if they would have done the opposite to us there, we would have been on our heels for couple of years. Gettysburg was probably the big one in the Civil War but some could argue for some of the west battles.


Incorrect, at least in my opinion.  Several, SEVERAL times after the Battle of Midway the Imperial Japanese fleet had an opportunity to defeat the Americans (see the Battle of the Philippine Sea, Battle of Guadalcanal).  The people say that it took the Japanese until '44 to recover, but the fact that THEY DID RECOVER, kinda offsets that Midway was the "utter destruction of the imperial fleet".  The only way in my mind that Midway was even possibly comparable to a turning point is that it cost the IJN some serious pilots and prevented them from having a super fleet to crush invasion fleets like on Tarawa.
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Offline Nemisis

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2009, 06:36:42 PM »

Incorrect, at least in my opinion.  Several, SEVERAL times after the Battle of Midway the Imperial Japanese fleet had an opportunity to defeat the Americans (see the Battle of the Philippine Sea, Battle of Guadalcanal).  The people say that it took the Japanese until '44 to recover, but the fact that THEY DID RECOVER, kinda offsets that Midway was the "utter destruction of the imperial fleet".  The only way in my mind that Midway was even possibly comparable to a turning point is that it cost the IJN some serious pilots and prevented them from having a super fleet to crush invasion fleets like on Tarawa.

I'm with you, 791. Midway was significant only in that it knocked the japanese back on their heels for a few years (As could have happened to us had we lost). About the only way Japan could have beaten the U.S. is through nuclear weapons which was scarily close to becoming a reality, as Japan detonated a nuke near the end of WW2, but only as a test. Had the Japanese had two of them built, they probably would have fought on.
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2009, 07:01:53 PM »
I'm with you, 791. Midway was significant only in that it knocked the japanese back on their heels for a few years (As could have happened to us had we lost). About the only way Japan could have beaten the U.S. is through nuclear weapons which was scarily close to becoming a reality, as Japan detonated a nuke near the end of WW2, but only as a test. Had the Japanese had two of them built, they probably would have fought on.

 :headscratch:
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2009, 07:53:38 PM »
I'm with you, 791. Midway was significant only in that it knocked the japanese back on their heels for a few years (As could have happened to us had we lost). About the only way Japan could have beaten the U.S. is through nuclear weapons which was scarily close to becoming a reality, as Japan detonated a nuke near the end of WW2, but only as a test. Had the Japanese had two of them built, they probably would have fought on.

The Japanese never detonated an atomic device.  I suggest you either start paying attention in history class or complain about your history teacher if he told you such nonsense.


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