Frame 1 Rules Clarification.......

[daddog]

Im getting the Dads mixed up. I said Daddog, but meant Dadsguns. My bad.

LOL That saved me a long reply.

[ghostdancer]

Interesting, so as long as the the primary mission is carried out and the mission completed or there are signs that  a particular squad does not need to defend because a lack of bad guys, they can be called away on a seperate mission to help complete someone elses'? As in your case of finding a bunch of P-40's dressed up and know where to go.

In a nutshell yes. Many CiCs actually tend not to fly during the frame they are managing so that they can better direct and redirect forces as the battle plays out.

- I strike goes bad find out if you have anybody else nearby with ordinance left or who can rearm and hit the target later
- Defense is wipe out at a target but based barely damaged, CiC takes a look and redeploys a group of surviving fighters to defend what he considers a higher value target.
- Etc.

In the case of a defending squad maybe it is now T+80 and no attack shows. So the CiC figures that maybe the attack force assigned to hit their target was intercepted and destroyed. He then has a couple of options to weigh:

1) Leave the defenders at their original base they are defending in case the opposing CiC is scraping together a force from his survivors to hit the base because the original attack was stopped / destroyed.

2) Or gamble that their is no attack coming since it has not materialized by T+60 and is 20 minutes past that mark and redeploying those assets elsewhere ... attack a target that still needs more damage, help defend a nearyb target under attack, vector to hunt down and kill egressing bombers, etc.  Of course this leaves what they were defending undefended now so if a scraped together force does appear they have a clear shot at that target.

So after the T+60 mark the CiC can start thinking about how best to use his survivors and to what purpose.

[Vulcan]

If the CV was only strafed and sunk it'd be an issue worth complaining about. But the CV musta been well and truely porked FROM BOMBS to be able to go down from 50's.

For those playing the 'authentic' and 'real life' card, if the CV was so damaged as to be sinkable by 50 cal's, then the CV would've been considered a write of in real life anyway.

[RSLQK186]

The basic cadence of FSO is to attack/ deffend for the first hour, then tulips assets and objectives met or not met and try and improve your sides standing by frames end.

With this in mind, it would be counter productive to make rules based on small variables such as: Would a real WWII pilot attempt to finish a CV off with 50Cals.

I agree that when someone takes advantage of a large whole in the rules or design it should be dealt with and has with hast in the past.

I do not feel this is a case that needs this much attention. It sounds more like a stepping stone to the "cookie cutter, neutered FSO" some of us old hands fear will happen if the rules are expanded much further.

Up till now the more memorable FSOs IMHO have been the ones where one or both CiCs realized there were things left to do in the second half. And they should be allowed to do it with whatever is available. The worst were the ones where one side was happy enough with the first hour or did poorly and basically withdrew. With the B-17s decimated, TracerX should have backed off?

<S> TracerX and Nightmares for a memorable one.      

[Strip]

If the CV was only strafed and sunk it'd be an issue worth complaining about. But the CV musta been well and truely porked FROM BOMBS to be able to go down from 50's.

For those playing the 'authentic' and 'real life' card, if the CV was so damaged as to be sinkable by 50 cal's, then the CV would've been considered a write of in real life anyway.

Thats the point, other than fire 50 caliber rounds would do little damage to the hull of the ship. No matter how many rounds you put into the carrier deck it would still never penetrate to the water line. The hull alone would probably be sufficient to stop 20 mm rounds in most places. If it cant punch a hole you might as well fill the thing with lead to try and sink it. Even if you call the flight deck a write off your still a long ways away from a new reef. Bottom line, no large ship such as a carrier, was ever sunk in this manner.

Strip

[Krusty]

Historically that's not the case... Many examples of cruisers and such being strafed down. It's not that you're punching holes in the water line, it's that you're hitting other vital areas. Some dramatic gun cam footage out there of several ships' boilers blowing up from strafing runs.

Now, the big flaw in most US carriers was the weak deck armor. Often times bombs went right through it. It was for the aircraft, not for the benefit of the areas below it.

Now there's a completely different debate as to whether CVs could be strafed down and sunk by gunfire only, but historically warships were killed with 50cals.

Buttloads of 50cals mind you, but 50cals nonetheless.

EDIT: Note that in AH this may or may not apply. Right below the CV deck was storage, gas, bombs, the giant hangar bay where all the planes were prepped... A fire in this area usually resulted in out-of-control blazes that eventually sunk the ship. Is it going to end-up like AH's damage model shows? No... But it'd be out of combat. Debate is open as to whether it's valid in FSO and whatnot.

[FiLtH]

   For the record Dadsguns, there were 10 P40Es with a bomb, and approx 4 P40B naked.  We dove through the cap to divebomb. Most of us hit. We egressed to escape the zeros, made a wide arc and passed ONCE over the ship, guns blazing. The last guy, Tyrnm got the ship sunk.

   Unfortunately this game doesnt show extent of damage, raging fires, listing from flooding etc. The CV is basically 100% or Sunk. That CV was dead no matter how you slice it. Fortunately for us we slapped an explanation point on it so it wouldnt slip thru the frame as "Survived".

    Im pretty sure if the CV had survived with .0005 life remaining, few would be complaining on here that it should have been sunk.

[TracerX]

Thats the point, other than fire 50 caliber rounds would do little damage to the hull of the ship. No matter how many rounds you put into the carrier deck it would still never penetrate to the water line. The hull alone would probably be sufficient to stop 20 mm rounds in most places. If it cant punch a hole you might as well fill the thing with lead to try and sink it. Even if you call the flight deck a write off your still a long ways away from a new reef. Bottom line, no large ship such as a carrier, was ever sunk in this manner.

Strip

Whether .50 cal bullets can pierce the hull is not relevant.  Imagine a ship that has been hit with 10+ 500lb bombs.  There would be hull damage, fires and all kinds of secondary damage going on.  The ship's crew would be working franticly to contain the damage and keep the boat afloat.  If these crew members are not able to attend to the ship because they are under fire from straffing aircraft or killed by them, then the ship will perish as Vulcan has already stated.  The simulation of killing these crew members or doing other damage to the ship that causes secondary explosions as Krusty has mentioned, is why .50 cals are allowed to do damage to ships in the game.  It is not out of line with what historically happened.  It would help if you were to expand your perception to include these kinds of events when considering the damage of straffing aircraft on ships.

[Strip]

At this point I am done with this conversation as I have said my piece and moved on.

However, not once have I denied that large (I question the validity of a cruiser being sunk tho) ships have been sunk in this manner. I do however contest the fact that an aircraft carrier (regardless of origin) has been sunk with 50 caliber weapons. Or any military vessel of similar tonnage......

Strip

[Dadsguns]

Fortunately for us we slapped an explanation point on it so it wouldnt slip thru the frame as "Survived".     

This is more like the all or nothing approach mentioned earlier................

  For the record Dadsguns, there were 10 P40Es with a bomb, and approx 4 P40B naked.  We dove through the cap to divebomb. Most of us hit. We egressed to escape the zeros, made a wide arc and passed ONCE over the ship, guns blazing. The last guy, Tyrnm got the ship sunk.

I was wrong.  For the record.

I counted 9 P40's attempt a drop in a dive with a total of 18 P40's in the air.

The group of 8 you were in (this shot) plus one out of the frame makes 9.



This was the shot from the strafing run.  17 in the air(1 chute), and the 11th guy strafed it and killed it.

[FiLtH]

   The overage in P40s must have been with another unit.  I was referring to our squad.

[Dadsguns]

They all look like RED guys to me..........  

I  want to add that your squad was not the first to strafe it, your squad finished it off.

[Dadsguns]

Historically that's not the case... Many examples of cruisers and such being strafed down. It's not that you're punching holes in the water line, it's that you're hitting other vital areas. Some dramatic gun cam footage out there of several ships' boilers blowing up from strafing runs.

Now, the big flaw in most US carriers was the weak deck armor. Often times bombs went right through it. It was for the aircraft, not for the benefit of the areas below it.

Now there's a completely different debate as to whether CVs could be strafed down and sunk by gunfire only, but historically warships were killed with 50cals.

Buttloads of 50cals mind you, but 50cals nonetheless.

EDIT: Note that in AH this may or may not apply. Right below the CV deck was storage, gas, bombs, the giant hangar bay where all the planes were prepped... A fire in this area usually resulted in out-of-control blazes that eventually sunk the ship. Is it going to end-up like AH's damage model shows? No... But it'd be out of combat. Debate is open as to whether it's valid in FSO and whatnot.

There was no evidence of any US warship that was strafed and sank that I am aware of. You saw footage of foreign ships being strafed but not a US warship causing it to sink. If so provide it, I am aware of none. Frigates, Destroyers,,,, maybe. Never happened to a CV or a Battleship/Cruiser.

As what has been stated, .50 cal loaded with AP (armor piercing)would still not be able to penetrate the hull or even the hanger deck of a CV.

"armor-piercing" was required to completely perforate 0.875" (22.2 mm) of hardened steel armor plate at a distance of 100 yards (91 m), and 0.75" (19 mm) at 547 yards (500 m).


Essex class fleet aircraft carriers
Displacement: 34,881 tons full load
Dimensions: 820 x 93 x 28.5 feet/250 x 28.3 x 8.7 meters
Extreme Dimensions: 872 x 147.5 x 28.5 feet/265.8 x 45 x 8.7 meters ("Long Hull" types: 888 x 147.5 x 28.5 feet/270.6 x 45 x 8.7 meters)
Propulsion: Steam turbines, 8 565 psi boilers, 4 shafts, 150,000 shp, 33 kts
Crew: 2,631
Armor: 1.5 inch hangar deck, 2.5-4 inch belt
Armament: 4 dual, 4 single 5/38 DP, 18 quad 40 mm AA, 61 single 20 mm AA ; single 20 mm AA replaced late WWII/postwar by 35 dual 20 mm AA
Aircraft: 100

And for the record, The "cruiser" in this game is modeled much like a Battleship and looks more like one. Either way, they were both heavily armored, their weakness was the stacks, which if even a small amount of ords was dropped into the stack area would disrupt the boiler causing a massive explosion.

Whether .50 cal bullets can pierce the hull is not relevant.  Imagine a ship that has been hit with 10+ 500lb bombs.  There would be hull damage, fires and all kinds of secondary damage going on.  The ship's crew would be working franticly to contain the damage and keep the boat afloat.  If these crew members are not able to attend to the ship because they are under fire from straffing aircraft or killed by them, then the ship will perish as Vulcan has already stated.  The simulation of killing these crew members or doing other damage to the ship that causes secondary explosions as Krusty has mentioned, is why .50 cals are allowed to do damage to ships in the game.  It is not out of line with what historically happened.  It would help if you were to expand your perception to include these kinds of events when considering the damage of straffing aircraft on ships.

   Your way off and its way out of line of what really happened......... Ask the Chief Shipmate...... You do realize that the ship under attack in your scenario would have all hands below deck complelty safe from strafing with .50 cal.  We call that GQ(General Qaurters) the only people topside in WWII would have been the gunners manning all the flak guns and various gun mounts.  The other 2,000 Sailors would be below deck.  Sure there would be secondary explosions, fire, etc. but if we are going to account for all of that then shouldnt we expand our perception to include these kinds of events as the ack from the battle group?  18 fighters came in and not one was hit with ack that destroyed their plane.  Where do we draw that line of make-believe?

It wasn't just sunk with 50 cal weapons, it was also sunk with bombs.

 

[Vulcan]

I do however contest the fact that an aircraft carrier (regardless of origin) has been sunk with 50 caliber weapons.

It wasn't just sunk with 50 cal weapons, it was also sunk with bombs.

[SIM]

I have read this thread with a great deal of amusement.

One individual is working tirelessly to salvage a damaged ego, while others work just as hard to explain the circumstances and conditions that needed to be and were met for the actions to happen in the FSO.

I did NOT fly the FSO nor have I flown in one in some time.

But I can understand the rules quiet easily, and no where to date has there been a portion that I could see as being "gamed" or abused.

Please Dadsguns, tell us your background in ship building and structural support. I would really find that interesting.

As a veteran sailor, if I knew that an aircraft with .50cal weapons was about to strafe my ship, I for one would be praying for a miss on the attackers part. His weapons may not penetrate the hull, but they would certainly penetrate all spaces above the waterline. The damage caused would be tremendous!

While I did NOT serve during the war, I know enough about the systems of those ships to say that Dadsgun, please stop. Your notes are biased at the very least by your attempt at saving face. They are NOT wholly supported by the facts that you state.

At any point that you desire to further debate what could and would likely happen aboard a ship being strafed, please send me a PM. If your current line of thought is what you intend to follow, be prepared to have your ego crushed.

After reading all your posts, I think my signature really sums up how you have ended up looking in this thread.