Author Topic: A "What If.." quesion.  (Read 2593 times)

Offline oakranger

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8380
      • http://www.slybirds.com/
Re: A "What If.." quesion.
« Reply #60 on: November 13, 2009, 01:20:20 AM »
they wouldn't have been able to. if the germans had taken control of the skies over britain, then they would also have had control of the skies over the channel, thus preventing the navy from being able to get in there and stop the germans.

 even ruling the skies, the germans would've been pushed back into the channel, by un-acceptable losses, due to british determination. every man woman and child would've been fighting them, pushing them back.....but they'd have gotten that far though........again, this is just my opinion.

CAP throws a dam good point.  Any General will agree with the statement, "you control the ski, you control the ground."  And yes, German could not hold the ground in England for long.  For one, they have no experience in amphibious invasion, or at that time.  They could not get there massive tanks on land on time nor get the supplies over there too. Yes, the Brits will take a donut beating but in time they will fight back. 
Oaktree

56th Fighter group

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
Re: A "What If.." quesion.
« Reply #61 on: November 13, 2009, 04:22:39 AM »
This thread is now a bit off the original what if, but very many good points floating around.
Now we are in the possible arena of operation "sea lion", and since I have studied this quite much, I'll throw in some cents ;)
For starters, get some facts straight. First in favour of the British, then the Germans.
1. The RN had complete superiority at sea. There is no way that the Kriegsmarine could have taken on to them
2. The English channel is quite lively with strong currents. The weather also plays quite a role.
3. At the easiest time of currents and weather, the daylight is the longest, since it would be mid-summer.
4. The RAF showed at Dunquerque, that the German Luftwaffe did not manage to achive enough air superiority to stop the RN in what it was doing.

5. The RN basically is NOT where the channel is at the narrowest. The main base at Portsmouth is 200 kilometers away. Or is Scapa Flow the main base? That one is 1.000 kilometers away. The distances would be more, - this is the air route!. With top speed cruise and ships at readiness (boilers ready) that would still be almost 4 hours from Portsmouth, and 20 hours from Scapa Flow. In case of emergency, the force "H" at Gibraltar would have to sail more than 2.000 kilometers, or about 2 days, and the speed is destroyer speed at max,- for practical speed you will have to multiply with 2. (Cruise 14 knots).
6. At the right moment, the channel can be calm, and the crossing is only 36 kilometers at the narrowest. Even a trawler will do it in 2 hours. In short, even a crossing of tugs doing 5 mph would be executable in darkness. Early August would allow this with ease.
7. Night operations are the best playground for fast E-boats as well as Destroyers. Germany has a force of both.
8. Germany has a significant force of Paratroopers. (The one that was crippled on Crete a year later). Airborne transport could secure key positions under the cover of darkness to help with the beach landings and the advance inland.
9. While the RAF and the RN are a real threat, they'd have to come out of their dens and fight in a scenario which would be planned for just exactly that. With a focus of stopping the channel crossings and delivering air cover for the navy as well as engaging into operations related with the army, the RAF would have it's hands full dealing with the German fighter sweeps.
10. I forgot ze German bomber fleet :D How about bombing Porsmouth at dawn, Same with Scapa Flow (from aircraft based in Denmark), and then harass the RAF at dusk on their own fields.
11. I also forgot the U-Boats. They would not need to be anywhere except around Britain. A pack ambushing the RN as it would rush in from 3 directions (Gibraltar, Scapa/east coast and from the west) to secure the channel. If Britain falls, there is no need for them to be in the Atlantic anyway.
12 The bluff. Put the British on their toes with an attack on an odd place. Bomb Newcastle at night perhaps? Just the same as the allied did when executing operation Overlord.

So there you go. I guess more points could be made though.
Anyway, what I make of it always gives the same outcome. I think the Germans could have pulled off a landing and made a hell of trouble. After all history tells us that the crossing to Normandy in 1944, covering some 4 times the distance of the planned German invasion was pulled off without the whistle being blown before being too late. And the Allies (Airborne) were already there!!! Same goes with the ill-fated battle of Arnhem, where the allies managed to get more than a thousand aircraft to the target without an interception. And when one ponders on the distances in question, the channel is really not such a big place, just as the Germans showed the British when they drove their Battlewagons through the channel and got away with it. So, in short, I am sure they could have managed a landing and a temporary foot-hold.
And there it ends. The Germans would not have peace in the air, a clear supply-line, and no chance in tackling with a man Royal Navy. History also tells us how the RN reacted in a worst case scenario. They did go completely suicidal if needed. And you would only need a single destroyer to get through the German barrier to cause unimaginable casualties. Then there is the problem of getting the Panzers across. The key to success of all the German Blitzkrieg was the Harmony of air superiority, close support, and Armour. On British ground they would have had none.
So, my cents go to the Brits ;)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline oakranger

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8380
      • http://www.slybirds.com/
Re: A "What If.." quesion.
« Reply #62 on: November 13, 2009, 04:38:13 AM »
Well Augus, i can't argue with that.  Given that where you lived and having knowledge of the area. 

I post this question to see what people would think the out come would look like.  Never thought about whether Germany would have a successful amphibious invasion on England and less on what Russia would do. 

Oh, as far as Germany having a successful amphibious invasion on England.  There is one key player that non of you guy brought up. Hitler planning it.  As we all know, Hitler will be obsessive of winning and ignoring his staff. 
Oaktree

56th Fighter group

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
Re: A "What If.." quesion.
« Reply #63 on: November 13, 2009, 05:06:56 AM »
Hehe, I have some photos in my books about the Germans drilling for the planned invasion. And the best of all, "Guidelines for troop behavior in England", written for the Wehrmacht. I'll see if I can dig it up, it's completely hilarious. It does show that the Gerries were serious though. They though the RAF could be done with in a week and then they could tug their panzers agross and park at Buckingham Palace. They even had a Kink in mind!!!
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline mbailey

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5677
Re: A "What If.." quesion.
« Reply #64 on: November 13, 2009, 05:44:54 AM »
Of all the threads ive posted in, i must say that this is one of the best.  Thanks for a great chat gents.   :salute



Mbailey
80th FS "Headhunters"

Ichi Go Ichi E
Character is like a tree and reputation like its shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing.

When the game is over, the Kings and Pawns all go into the same box.

Offline Simba

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 725
Re: A "What If.." quesion.
« Reply #65 on: November 13, 2009, 02:34:39 PM »
Hehe, I have some photos in my books about the Germans drilling for the planned invasion. And the best of all, "Guidelines for troop behavior in England", written for the Wehrmacht. I'll see if I can dig it up, it's completely hilarious. It does show that the Gerries were serious though. They though the RAF could be done with in a week and then they could tug their panzers agross and park at Buckingham Palace. They even had a Kink in mind!!!

Post it in with all speed, Angus, I need a good larf.

 :aok
Simba
No.6 Squadron vRFC/RAF

Offline Simba

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 725
Re: A "What If.." quesion.
« Reply #66 on: November 13, 2009, 03:38:33 PM »
"History also tells us how the RN reacted in a worst case scenario. They did go completely suicidal if needed."

Not suicidal, just ordinary men doing their extraordinary best. My grandfather was the only one of three brothers to survive the war. Great-uncle Jack went down with Rawalpindi when that gallant Admiralty-Made Coffin (sorry, Armed Merchant Cruiser) took on the Scharnhorst in the Denmark Strait in 1939. Great-uncle Perce was lost with the destroyer Glow-worm when she rammed the Hipper off Norway. CPO Pop enjoyed a slightly quieter time aboard the old light cruiser Despatch, operating in support of the South Atlantic Squadron by mopping up German supply tenders such as the MV Dusseldorf. Gran told me he 'cheered like a good'un' when the three cruisers they'd last seen a few days earlier reported that they had been in action with the enemy and forced Graf Spee into Montivedeo. The German commerce raider had probably moved to the mouth of the River Plate to take prizes in lieu of the supplies she could have expected to receive from those tenders.

Graf Spee heavily damaged all three cruisers before she took refuge in the neutral harbour; in particular, HMS Exeter, whose temporarily-blinded captain had asked the Jimmy 'what is her position relative to ours?' when his command's 8" guns fell silent. 'All our main armament is out of action, sir.' 'Bugger the guns, I intend to ram the bastard.' Luckily for them the 6" cruisers Ajax and Achilles had now become the primary targets and Exeter was asked 'Can you make it to the Falklands?' 'Reply: Can make it to Portsmouth if so ordered' - and she lived to fight and die another day, in 1942 at the Battle of the Java Sea.     

As a medic, once back home again Pop served ashore for the rest of the war at RN Hospital Haslar. He died of cancer in 1957, aged 59.

:salute   
Simba
No.6 Squadron vRFC/RAF

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
Re: A "What If.." quesion.
« Reply #67 on: November 14, 2009, 10:12:12 AM »
That was really something Simba!!!
I had exactly those in mind when referring to "suicidal".
The RN was completely agressive when needed and the examples you quoted showed just that. Hence forth, the Gerries were quite aware of that.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)