why Tracer off ?

[Soulyss]

I allways felt that the benefits of the tracers outweigh the downsides.  Sure if your saddled up on someone and miss your first burst you've given yourself away but sometimes it's good to let them know you're back there and can clr them from a friendlies 6 before you might actually have a good shot, and if you don't want to give yourself away.... don't miss.  

------------------
 

"Smoke me a kipper boys, I'll be back for breakfast"

[This message has been edited by Soulyss (edited 06-22-2000).]

[Minotaur]

How often does the tracer fire, once every 6th round?  

Does this mean you shoot lead instead of phosphor bullets?

Could this imply you get a 15% greater chance of doing damage for accurate shooting?

Anyone know?

------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Though some art vets, all art dweebish"
Jedi

[ra]

MX22, are you saying that there's no way someone could turn off tracers and not suffer lower gunnery?  I'm sure my gunnery hasn't suffered, and others say theirs has improved.  Also, many WWII pilots elected to fly without tracers, maybe they were being cool.    

ra

[easymo]

 Hblair is cool

[mx22]

Fighting in arena is way different then in real life. I think many pilots in WW2 died before they could see their enemy, tell me that's the case in MA.
When you bounce someone who doesn't see you, no tracer loadout is a big help, but when you know enemy had seen you and manuevers, tracers would help you out ping him.

mx22

[ra]

All true MX22.  But even with neon icons the enemy doesn't always see you.  I just killed a C-205 in a bounce in which he probably would have gotten away if I'd had tracers on.  I was in a furball above him, and he was low heading toward a low furball a couple miles away.  I dove on him from high-6 and by the time I got within firing range I was at nearly 500mph and having a hard time tracking him.  I opened fire at about 600 yards and kept firing as I rapidly closed.  All my bullets missed until about the last second, when I lit him up. He was obviously looking at the furball ahead so he didn't see my icon diving down on him.  If I'd had tracers on he probably could have jinked out of harms way.

Another thing tracers do is they tell the enemy what direction the gunfire is coming from, and that way he knows which way to jink without having to first look around.  This is true even in a furball where he knows he's in trouble.  Your tracers give him a bit of information he wouldn't otherwise have had.

I've had it happen in a buff where I was manning the tail gun zoomed in on a fighter just out of range, when suddenly I see tracers coming up from directly below, so I jump to the belly gun and kill the guy attacking from a zoom climb below.

Tracers off are not a huge advantage, because most of the time they are not a factor.  I think if people took the time to learn to shoot well without them they would probably choose to fly with them off most of the time.

An option I would love to see would be to have tracers in my secondary guns only, so I could still use them for spooking an enemy who's too far away to hit.

ra

[Ghosth]

MX22 to me it has nothing to do with being cool. What it does have to do with is seeing the hit flashes when I AM on target instead of tracer smoke.

Thus, giveing me positive feedback as to what hits & what doesn't. It's a learned responce vs a visual one. In time it will blow your visual responce away.

Ever try to shoot a speeding Canadian goose with shotgun & tracers? No, your brain LEARNS where & how much to lead. Shooting is shooting to me, it's got everything to do with trajectory & timeing. Less to do with where you See your bullets going.

Of course being an old fart country boy I could be way off base here. In which case you can ignore me or flame me at your lesure.

[hblair]

 

Ever try to shoot a speeding Canadian goose with shotgun & tracers? No, your brain LEARNS where & how much to lead. Shooting is shooting to me, it's got everything to do with trajectory & timeing. Less to do with where you See your bullets going.

Well said.

Easymo, you know the fonz when you see him? I got a harvey too.

 

[easymo]

 Its a trumpet. I had a few of them back in the early 60,s. Use to set at stop lights, and watch the parts fall off. Wentworth fasteners dont you know

[Minotaur]

     

Originally posted by Ghosth:
<snip>

Ever try to shoot a speeding Canadian goose with shotgun & tracers? No, your brain LEARNS where & how much to lead. Shooting is shooting to me, it's got everything to do with trajectory & timeing. Less to do with where you See your bullets going.

<Snip>

LOL      

Consider yourself lucky, but don't think lowly of those of us who are not.  IMO the "No Tracer" option is primarily for ambush or frame rate issues.

Why do you suppose things like "Predictor Gunsights" came into being and are so succesful?  

One of the best AA gun systems in the world has 2 sets of radar.  One radar tracks the target, the other tracks the fired projectiles.  A computor aligns these two radar returns by moving the gun, walking the projectiles into target.  This is called "Error Correction".

The human brain via visual imputs provides "Error Correction" with aid of visable projectiles in the very same way.  This is simple.

The country boy example works for geese, ducks and pheasants.  The range is short and the cone of many dispersed projectiles are very highly lethal to the target.  The gun is not aboard a moving platform and the target flies very predictable.

So...  Give me an A/C with 80-120 single shot 20mm cannon that can manuver with my target.  This gun system set up so that it provides a projectile cone that has a lethal radius 3-4 times the radius of my target.  I agree tracers would not be needed.

Hit a flying honker that is in crossing flight with a pellet gun standing in the back of a swerving Pick-Up driving down a bumpy road, then you understand lead.

This actually reminds me of a recent experience.  I heard the jets going by so my head naturally whips around.  I see 2 pair of A/C.  Each of the pair flying in perfect formation with their wingman.  One pair trailing the other, the 2 pair in perfect formation to which I assumed was echelon.  

The 1st pair were F-15's and they were climbing out.  The 2nd pair was a pair of Mallard ducks that were going who knows where.  Visually, this required a double take on my part.  Initially, at the time the F-15's looked much the easier target.      

The F-15 is such a pretty bird in flight...

Good Luck!      

------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Though some art vets, all art dweebish"
Jedi

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 06-23-2000).]

[mx22]

ra,

I don't know what plane you fly that you can let yourself fire from 600d or so, but my Spitfire and now Yak don't have all that much ammo so I don't shoot from anything farther then 350-400d.
Another thing, even if that guy had seen tracers, it would take you less then a  second to adjust for the right angle and ping him. Unless he has superhuman reflexes he would not have escaped you undamaged.
Why do you think tracers were introduced in a first place? Because pilots had problem with aiming and they helped them out.
Don't tell me it works in reverse.
mx22

[ra]

MX22,

I was flying the 190-A5, and as I said I was at around 500mph, so if he had jinked at all I would not have been able to hit him, trust me.  Also, I had to open up at 600 yards because at the rate I was closing I was only going to get a 3 or 4 second shot before passing him.  I am capable of hitting a non-manuevering target at 600 yards, but my controls were nearly frozen from speed so trying to make fine adjustments didn't work.  So I held down the trigger and waited for him to fly into my bullet stream.

Many pilots in WWII elected not to have tracers, there is a slight advantage to it.  With all the shooting practice we get in air combat sims, I don't see any advantage to having tracers except for spooking the enemy.

ra

[This message has been edited by ra (edited 06-23-2000).]

[This message has been edited by ra (edited 06-23-2000).]

[mx22]

ra,

To sum everythign up. It's up to you to either have it on or off, to say the truth I don't really care. The only time I get caught surprised is when I talk to someone in AH and at that point it doesn't matter if they have tracers or no. Things happen just to fast for you to react and escape safely.
So I just fly with tracers on and when I miss, I know how to correct my aim. I don't get to bounce unaware targets all that often, I think I had this happen only 5-6 times since January and then, so I don't I can live with tracers on.

mx22