JU87 w\37mm Cannon for Tank Busting

[gyrene81]

The Kanonenvogel had 6 rounds per pod, this is not even close to being open for debate.

TRUE... 

[Ack-Ack]

The interesting thing about the 37mm Flak 18 cannon that was used, was that it was an utter failure as a ground anti-tank gun but became one of the best plane mounted anti-tank guns during the war.


ack-ack

[gyrene81]

Not surprising Ack Ack...look at what part of the tank you're shooting at from ground level versus in the air.

[Madguns]

Tungsten carbide is extremely hard.  The weight is close to the weight of steel if not a little lighter.  It does have SUPERIOR penetration capabilities.  We still use tungsten carbide as projectiles in .50 Cal SLAP and 7.62 SLAP rounds.  Sabot Loaded Armor Piercing.  .50 Cal will go through the engine block of a deuce and a half truck.  You can forget about hiding behind anything for protection, as the only thing that MIGHT protect you is a front line modern TANK.

6 Rounds per gun?  No problem, it only took one round in the turret or engine compartment to pop a T-34.  The rate of fire was not a factor as they were utilized much like a semiautomatic rifle.

It’s been long enough, when are we getting this addition?

[Rich46yo]

I never even knew the gun had 12 round clips. But here you go. http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm

The remaining German guns were all adaptations of ground guns. The first was the 37 mm BK 3,7, a modified version of the FlaK 18 AA gun firing the same 37x263B ammunition. This meant that it was bulky, heavy and slow-firing by comparison with the NS-37, for example. It also remained clip-fed, with a maximum capacity of just 12 rounds. It mainly fired Hartkernmunition ammo, capable of penetrating up to 140 mm / 100 m / 90 degrees although this was halved at a striking angle of 60 degrees.

Debate it with the guy who wrote the book on it.

I deliberatly didnt include exact figures for armor penetration cause Ive heard several different accounts. Theres no question is was a very good AP shell.

Im becoming very fond of the Hurri-D. I think it handles like a dream as far as a tank killing fighter is concerned. The Brits did a whole lot of development of hyper-velocity anti-armor rounds before and during the war, "including the finned sabot", but none of this made it to the Hurri-D 40mm guns in the field. In the game I find the "S" guns most accurate and the Hurri-D very flyable. Like the Yak-9T however its a little light for the tough tanks. Its not as tough as the Yak but still a fine weapon for most GVs you run into.

The JU-87G would be a very welcome addition. I'd love to see it included.

[Masherbrum]

I know where you got it.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm

The number is still 6 per pod.   

[Lusche]

In the game I find the "S" guns most accurate and the Hurri-D very flyable. Like the Yak-9T however its a little light for the tough tanks.

The Hurri D is very much unlike the Yak 9T when it comes to killing tough tanks - It's very much able to kill any tank in game. Even one-hit killshots on the Tiger are possible (almost perpendicular hit on top armor above driver's compartment), the only tank that's quite difficult to stop is a T34/76 (the /85 seems to have a paper turret).
Before the B-25H and the 37mm Il-2 arrived, the D Hurri was the only way to stop Tigers when ords were down.

[Lusche]

The Kanonenvogel had 6 rounds per pod, this is not even close to being open for debate.

Why not?

The number is still 6 per pod.  

I have a few books giving 12 per gun, but the only one I would call "reliable" is

Waffen-Arsenal Bd 133: Deutsche Sturzkampfflugzeuge Ju-87 Ju 88 by Joachim Dressel & Manfred Griehl.
It presents a "Flugzeug-Baureihenübersicht Junkers Ju-87", date 19 August 1944 giving "Chef TLR Fl. (E-2)" as a source.
Ju-87 G-1 and G-2 are both listed as having 12 rounds per gun.

If that is true (and I have no reason to doubt that, as it's in line with Mr. Williamson's findings), I may also have found where some confusion might have come from:

The Flak 18 was loaded with 6-round clips per tray



But as we can see on this picture, the cannon seems to have two trays, one left & right:


So this would give each cannon 2x6=12 rounds

I will see if I can dig up some more...

[Lusche]

2nd Source is a detailed article about the 87G and it's weapons.

About the BK 3,7 it says:

"Die BK 3,7 entstand aus der Flak 18 unter Änderung des Rücklaufmechanismus, Kürzung des Laufs und Einbau eines Fernabzuges. Modifiziert betrug die Rohrlänge der Bordkanone 210,6 cm, die Gesamtlänge 375,0 cm. Mit der ab Februar 1942 bei der E-6 Gruppe in Rechlin erprobten Hartkernmunition erreichte man zunächst eine Durchschlagsleistung von 58mm bei einem Auftreffwinkel von 60° aus 100m Entfernung. Mit der später verwendeten Pz.Gr. L`spur änderte sich diese auf 120mm.

Jeweils 6 Wolfram-Stahlgranaten waren in einem Magazin an der Seite der Waffe. Jede Flak 18 verfügte über 12 Schuß."

Translation of last sentence: "6 tungsten-steel rounds where carried each in a tray at the side of the weapon. Each Flak 18 was equipped with 12 rounds."

(Waffen-Arsenal Sonderband S-16 - Flugzeuge gegen Panzer)

Which conforms with the pictures posted above.

But I'm still trying to find some detail photographies or drawings of the Bk-3,7 ... I'm still not convinced

[bravoa8]

I say no to this idea IL2's are enough for us gvers if we have to get it perk it!

[Masherbrum]

2nd Source is a detailed article about the 87G and it's weapons.

About the BK 3,7 it says:

"Die BK 3,7 entstand aus der Flak 18 unter Änderung des Rücklaufmechanismus, Kürzung des Laufs und Einbau eines Fernabzuges. Modifiziert betrug die Rohrlänge der Bordkanone 210,6 cm, die Gesamtlänge 375,0 cm. Mit der ab Februar 1942 bei der E-6 Gruppe in Rechlin erprobten Hartkernmunition erreichte man zunächst eine Durchschlagsleistung von 58mm bei einem Auftreffwinkel von 60° aus 100m Entfernung. Mit der später verwendeten Pz.Gr. L`spur änderte sich diese auf 120mm.

Jeweils 6 Wolfram-Stahlgranaten waren in einem Magazin an der Seite der Waffe. Jede Flak 18 verfügte über 12 Schuß."

Translation of last sentence: "6 tungsten-steel rounds where carried each in a tray at the side of the weapon. Each Flak 18 was equipped with 12 rounds."

(Waffen-Arsenal Sonderband S-16 - Flugzeuge gegen Panzer)

Which conforms with the pictures posted above.

But I'm still trying to find some detail photographies or drawings of the Bk-3,7 ... I'm still not convinced

Cool finds Lusche.  They must have adapted a 2nd tray after development.   All books I have state six rounds.   

[Lusche]

Cool finds Lusche.  They must have adapted a 2nd tray after development.   All books I have state six rounds.  

I have seen references about 12 as well as 6 rounds, but the sources for 12 rounds are the more detailed ones. But when I take an even closer look at my pics, I see that the "2nd" tray is much smaller, as if it were no tray at all. All other pics I have seen so far look the same...

[Masherbrum]

I have seen references about 12 as well as 6 rounds, but the sources for 12 rounds are the more detailed ones. But when I take an even closer look at my pics, I see that the "2nd" tray is much smaller, as if it were no tray at all. All other pics I have seen so far look the same...

That is what I was thinking, more like a "cleaning hatch for the mechanism"?

[Lusche]

Another detail: Look closely at the tray's opening - doesn't it actually look like 2 trays, one above the other?

[Masherbrum]

Another detail: Look closely at the tray's opening - doesn't it actually look like 2 trays, one above the other?

(Image removed from quote.)

Only question I'd have.   I'm not familiar with this gun, but maybe they only carried 6 and the casings cycled through to the bottom, or did they eject?