Author Topic: la7 vs. Yak, words of wisdom sought ...  (Read 537 times)

prz

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la7 vs. Yak, words of wisdom sought ...
« on: March 20, 2001, 04:50:00 PM »
Flew la7 for a while and it's a great plane. Anything that can run it down (+/- some alt advantage), it can turn vert or horz [like 109s or 190s], anything that can turn it, it can run away from [likke Nikkis or Spits]. BUT there is one plane I cannot phantom a weakness/strategy to fight in an La7 [except well-planed extension since La7 is 20 knots or so faster ground level top speed]. It's the damn'd Yak plague. I know that over 8K, la7 is basically equal or under Yak and I picked couple engagements there including some good Yak fighters [Blkhammr] to explore the solution space. Mostly costed me my a..s but that's ok, price of learning and came out as expected. However, even under 8 or 6K I can't find a good solution for Yaks.
Seems like Yak is eating me up in any horizontal moves and in vertical moves I don't survive more than 2 or 3 of those if the Yak gets on my 6 tightly. I am not sure how to fight roll-rate and climb-rate which seem to be superior in La7 except for short-term evasives advantage. Another problem is that even when I manage to get a Yak's 6, La7 cannons are pretty useless since it's impossible to keep a good Yak pilot still for a second at 200-300 distance that a good La7 shot needs. So,  words of wisdom is what I'm looking for here I guess ...

Back to Nikki for the moment to pad my K/D ratio and bruised ego again ;-|)

Offline leonid

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la7 vs. Yak, words of wisdom sought ...
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2001, 10:38:00 PM »
prz, you are talking about the one plane that was its performance contemporary in the VVS, the Yak-9U.  Which plane was actually better is a toss up.  Both have their pluses and minuses, but they are very close.  From 10k, up, I'd put money on the Yak.  From 10k, down, the La7.  Of the two, the Yak is better maneuvering, whether horizontal or vertical, fast or slow.  The Yak can dive at a higher speed safely.  Both have about the same zoom climb, though the La7 will pull a better sustained climb to 8k(as will the La5FN).  At low alt, the La7 will have the better top speed.  The La7 has much better armament, but poorer view.  The La7 is a tougher aircraft, and I think has better range.  

I fly the La7, but that more to do with the 5 GvIAP's history, as well as my greater respect for Semyon Lavochkin, the designer of the Lavochkin fighters.

The Yakovlev fighters possessed a characteristic performance finesse that was very unique (French of the Nieman Normandie when given the choice of flying Yak-3s or Spitfire IXs, picked the Yak-3.  This plane handled very similarly to the Yak-9U, though had slightly less performance).  On the downside, they were fragile, and usually lacking in armament (Yak-9T/K aside).

Lavochkin fighters didn't possess the degree of maneuverability that the Yakovlevs had, but they were a very stable aircraft, very forgiving, flightwise.  They were surprisingly tough, due to their all wood construction, or nearly all wood construction, in the La7's case.  They had better armament than your average Yak, and were quite fast.

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leonid, Kompol
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"Our cause is just.  The enemy will be crushed.  Victory will be ours."
ingame: Raz

Offline AKDejaVu

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la7 vs. Yak, words of wisdom sought ...
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2001, 11:35:00 PM »
Had an La-7 suprise me with his speed the first time I went up against one.  It really is your best asset against the Yak-9U.

Other than that.. I haven't really had any problems keeping up with one.  I do like it when someone forgets that 20 mph doesn't get them from 200 yards to 1k quite fast enough to escape my cannons

I can't say I've tried a sustained turn against an La-7... it seems they scissors more than anything. The Yak is a deadly plane to scissors against, especially if the pilot has even a remote clue as to how to counter it.

Oh.. and one thing you don't want to do is cut your throttle and pray for an overshoot.  It works against the rookies, but the experienced Yak vets will just laugh.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpfull.

AKDejaVu

Offline -aper-

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la7 vs. Yak, words of wisdom sought ...
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2001, 01:36:00 AM »
prz wrote:
 
Quote
Back to Nikki for the moment to pad my K/D ratio and bruised ego again ;-|)

If you want to become an expert in La-7 it would be better to forget about Niki and fly only La-7. As for duels with Yaks - the results 99% depend on skills of pilots.



Offline Vermillion

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la7 vs. Yak, words of wisdom sought ...
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2001, 07:37:00 AM »
Like Leonid, I mostly flew the Yak-9U before this revision, and now I mostly fly the La7.

His assessment is right on.

To be honest, I really prefer the Yak-9U's superior handling, visibility, and better performance at altitude, even though the La7's deck speed is much better than the Yak's.

When I say superior handling, I think the Yak-9U is more stable and less nose heavy than the La7. Their 360 turning times are within a half second of each other so their sustained turns are almost equal (20 seconds and 20.5 seconds).

But in the world of Aces "Cannon Birds" High, the guns make all the difference.  The firepower difference between the two make a world of difference to me in how I fight. The 3 cannons on the La7 allow me to make snapshots, and insure kills when I get in close for a proper shot. In the Yak-9U, snapshots are useless, and you must typically get in a sustained trailing position to get a kill. And to do that you must typically follow them all the way down to the deck and get killed by follow on enemies.

So, if we ever get the x3 B20 cannon version of the Yak-9UT (which is the equivalent to the 3 gun La7), I will probably go back to the Yakolev.

But until then, I will probably stick with the La7 simply because of the firepower difference.

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Offline Westy

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la7 vs. Yak, words of wisdom sought ...
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2001, 07:49:00 AM »
The 3 cannons on the La7 allow me to make snapshots

 Bingo!   With the Yak9U or even 9T one has to either wait for the sure shot due to the low ammo. Or if you spray hope to get one kill and bug out.  The LA7 pilots are definately more liberal with thier shots and as a result they get that odd round in which can be a disabler if not a killer.

 - Westy

Offline leonid

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la7 vs. Yak, words of wisdom sought ...
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2001, 09:30:00 AM »
Verm, I was able to get snapshot kills with the Yak, but it was usually at collision range while scissoring, or a very close hi-speed pass.  But trying to shoot down a jinking fighter at high speed was usually a futile exercise.  Thus, I'd always wait for the scissors or turns to begin before making a serious effort at taking a shot.

The La7s I fly for the low alt speed, and for the guns.  It is nice to finally fly a VVS aircraft that has excellent snapshot capability.  And nothing beats a nose painted red  

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leonid, Kompol
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Offline Ripsnort

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la7 vs. Yak, words of wisdom sought ...
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2001, 09:55:00 AM »
Leonid, I *knew* you were a 'Red'..

prz

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la7 vs. Yak, words of wisdom sought ...
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2001, 11:44:00 AM »
so to summarize the posts by a couple of well known and dreaded names: if you get 1-on-1 in la7 vs. Yak and after first pass guy does not look like a dweeb, put your nose down and haul your bellybutton out there since you're playing against the odds ;-) Was my suspicion ;-) I agree with the cannons argument for many-vs-many (I fly mostly cannons for reasons named in MA) except that in 1-on-1 with a good Yak, cannons are worth squidelli-did, proper cannon shot, even snapshot, is easily countered by the yaks so you end up spraying your short clip around.

The posts got me intrigued though to trying the Yak for some low-furballing then. And for the useless advice to give up nikki & fly just la7: You mean, I should get killed ALL the time ;-) No way.

funked

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la7 vs. Yak, words of wisdom sought ...
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2001, 12:36:00 PM »
La-7 is just a ridiculously good tool at low level.  Just stick to the vertical plane for maneuvering and you will rule.  

Also, deflection shooting is not so easy because of the view over the nose.  So it helps to "saddle up" (get on dead six).  

But it is not always wise to maneuver with the bandit to saddle up (need to keep enough energy to escape in case more/higher bandits show up), so you need to make some high-deflection snapshots.  The poor deflection-shooting view in the La-7 means you need to minimize range and do some tricks to maximize visibility of the bandit.  

What you have to do is maneuver so that he crosses your gunsight from left-to-right or vice-versa, and he crosses at very close range.  This means you have to guess at his future flight path, but most MA denziens tend to be predictable.  Usually they see you coming in fast somewhere behind their wing-line, and make at least a quarter-turn blacked out.  

If you see this coming, do a high yo-yo into his turn, and try to come in at a 90-degree angle to his flight path, wings-level with your pipper just below and ahead of him.  When the time is right (it takes some practice), pull up and "have a squirt" as some RAF pilots used to say.    

If you really timed it right, you will almost collide with him, leaving a trail of hit flashes from nose to tail, passing just behind his tail as you switch views to watch his smoking carcass spin out of control.  It's a very high deflection shot, and he might be pulling a lot of gees, but by predicting his flight path and making it a very short-range shot, you take those factors out of the equation.  In essence you lead him with your plane so you don't have to lead him with your bullets.

If he's not fatally damaged, or he changed his maneuver, just put your nose up and zoom, and let the manly ASh-82FN pull you skyward, then try again.  As long as he keeps turning hard, and as long as you keep replenishing your energy with zooms, your energy advantage over him will grow and grow.  The longer this goes on, the more chances you get to shoot him, and the more likely it is that he will screw up and give you a dead-six shot.

Now to deal directly with PRZ's question:  If the guy in the Yak is better than you, forgetaboutit - the difference in the planes is not big enough to overcome a big difference in the pilots.  Assuming both pilots are equal, and he is behind you with equal energy, use your speed to exit and come back later.  But if he is not on your tail, and you have somewhere near equal energy, you should be able to use your climbing and top speed advantages to beat his turning ability.  Use vertical maneuvers and gunnery techniques like I described above, and you should be OK at low levels.  Up higher, the La-7's performance drops off a little quicker than the Yak-9U, so you will need to be a better pilot or have a little more energy.

PS Solution space?   NERD!!!


[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-21-2001).]

Offline leonid

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la7 vs. Yak, words of wisdom sought ...
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2001, 10:35:00 PM »
funked, if you fly VVS that is invariably how you shoot - spot on assessment.  Quite a few times I'll close on a target by viewing through forward left or right, working that parallel closure that creates nice, very close snapshot opps with low deflection angle, resulting in quite a rake.  With even a Yak-9U, a short burst is usually enough under those circumstances.

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leonid, Kompol
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"Our cause is just.  The enemy will be crushed.  Victory will be ours."
ingame: Raz

funked

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la7 vs. Yak, words of wisdom sought ...
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2001, 03:07:00 AM »
Yeah it's really beautiful when it works.  Too bad we don't have a gun camera to capture some of these shots.  

Offline Vermillion

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la7 vs. Yak, words of wisdom sought ...
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2001, 07:21:00 AM »
What I do,  is that I  intentionally setup my approach/attack position "low". Realize that I mean I am attacking with an energy advantage, I get below him and attack up thru him.

I point my nose (as I come in on the bandit) at an imaginary point that is about 1 to 1.5 wingspans below his actual position. This way I have a nice clean view of his manuever until just the last second when I adjust for the shot.

This helps if he is doing the standard flat turn, split-S, or if he includes a slight dive component into the standard break turn.

Plus it sets you up for your zoom to reclaim your energy, since you are already in a nose up position and you don't have to burn alot of E pulling those hard G's to get into your zoom.

This sounds similar to what Funked was talking about, but I may not be as eloquent as he is.  

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Vermillion
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