I.D. this plane (from a test)

[Vermillion]

Funked, don't use one number out of context. Start a couple of paragraphs up from where you grabbed that number.

On the issue of when it entered combat, FYI the Mustang started reaching 8th AF units in Jun 44 (source America's Hundred Thousand).

• "Service flight tests of the La7 began in mid september 1944, and were conducted by the 63rd Guards Fighter Air Corps at the First Baltic Front for one month.  Thirty La7's, mostly built by the Moscow aircraft production plant, were assigned to the tests. <snip> During the tests, the regiment made 462 sorties, during which 55 enemy aircraft were shot down for the loss of eight La7s (half of which was non combat) and three pilots."

On the issue of numbers, your being very misleading, when you quote 291.

• During October and November 1944 La-7s began to be used widely on all fronts. <snip> More than 2,000 La7's, mainly built by major Plant No. 21, were sent to the front up to the wars end. <snip> By Early 1945 there were 398 La7's in front line air force units, and 291 were combat ready.  This was equivalent to about 6% of all serviceable fighters. By the end of the war this had increased to 15%. <snip> A total of 5,753 La-7s were built by the three plants up to the wars end.

Now, I don't have numbers for the P-51D when it comes to "deployed in front line service" or "Serviceable on XXX date" (if anyone has please share them), but the total production up to wars end was 8,056.

Honestly, Just how many of those were actually in front line service, AND combat ready? I dont' know myself, but I will leave up to someone else to research.

BUT if you want to compare like numbers to like numbers its 5,753 to 8,056, not 291.

For comparisons purposes with other AH American aircraft (all production numbers from America's Hundred Thousand):

P-51D   8,056
F6F-5   6,436
La-7    5,753
P-47    5,264 (D25's thru D30)
P-38L   3,923
F4U-1D  2,800 (including FG-1's)

So if you use the same type of data, you will see that the La7 was as numerous and important as many of the US Models in WWII.


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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[funked]

 

you will see that the La7 was as numerous and important as many of the US Models in WWII.

That's laughable and you know it.  A fighter that only saw 3-4 months duty in numbers greater than 400 or so, being compared in importance to the planes that broke the back of the Luftwaffe, IJAAF, and IJNAF.

PS I put P-51D in the same "late war wonder" category as La-7, Fw 190D-9, Spitfire F. Mk. XIV, Me 109K-4, etc.  It had a far greater influence on the war than the others, but by virtue of late introduction date and performance, it goes in that category.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-23-2001).]

[Vermillion]

Again funked until someone can show me similar "on the front and serviceable" numbers for aircraft like the P-51D (which I'm just using as a comparison point) how can you compare them without similar data?

Again your taking the worst possible number you can find for the VVS, but then using the best possible numbers for the Allies.

When we can compare Apples to Apples, and Oranges to Oranges, then we'll talk.

Otherwise its must a propaganda game comparing two sets of data that have nothing in common.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[funked]

No matter what numbers you use, La-7 was only in combat for about 6 months, and therefore falls into my definition of late war wonder.  Which is all I was saying in the first place way up in this thread.

[Widewing]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:

On the issue of when it entered combat, FYI the Mustang started reaching 8th AF units in Jun 44 (source America's Hundred Thousand).

Now, hold on a minute. If the P-51 did not reach the 8th AF until June of 1944, how do we explain two full fighter groups of P-51s appearing over Berlin in early March of 1944? P-51B Mustangs first arrived in October of 1943, and were assigned to the 354th FG of the 9th AF. Shortly thereafter, the first Group was re-assigned to the 8th AF, and began escorting the heavies in December. In February of '44, the 357th and 4th Fighter Groups went operational with the P-51B. So, long before June of '44, Mustangs were operating in very significant numbers in the ETO. See the chart below for the operational dates by type.

 

My regards,

Widewing

[Lephturn]

Very cool chart!

It would be great to apply some models to that chart just for more info.

BTW, what are the yellow bars for?  Is that when they went "active" with that plane?

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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

[Widewing]

 

Originally posted by Lephturn:
Very cool chart!

It would be great to apply some models to that chart just for more info.

BTW, what are the yellow bars for?  Is that when they went "active" with that plane?

That's correct. The yellow bar indicates when the unit went operational.

My regards,

Widewing

[Vermillion]

Widewing, I'll let you and Francis Dean argue about that one. Thats straight from America's Hundred Thousand.

And its a reference to the "D" model, not the B or C

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-23-2001).]

[Sable]

Well, including units operating both the B and D is fair given that the had near identical performance.  If we take the October-November time frame during which the La-7 began to reach normal frontline units, the 8th AF had 12-13 FG's using the Mustang, the 9th AF had 2-3 FG's, the 15th AF had 4 FG's.  That 18-20 fighter groups each fielding about 50 Mustangs on a mission(they had more then this, but would generally fly in formations of 48).  That's 800-1000 P-51's active in Europe, and doesn't even count the numerous RAF squadrons that operated the Mustang.  In early 1945 this was up to 15 8th AF groups, and a total of about 1100 Mustangs in US service in the ETO.  There were probably at least 2-300 RAF Mustangs as well.  That's quite a bit more then 300 La-7s.

Sable
352nd FG

[This message has been edited by Sable (edited 03-23-2001).]

[Widewing]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:
Widewing, I'll let you and Francis Dean argue about that one. Thats straight from America's Hundred Thousand.

And its a reference to the "D" model, not the B or C

Verm, Diz wouldn't argue with me. He knows that the P-51B arrived in Britain as early as September of 1943. If you turn to page 332 of America's 100K, you can follow the deployment from its beginning. You have to go to the bottom of page 335 to see when the D model began to arrive. Mustangs were Mustangs. Throughout 1944, many squadrons flew a mix of B, C and D models. A useful reference to get is O'Leary's VIII Fighter Command at War (The Long Reach) published by Osprey. It's only recently been released, and is a keeper for about $20.

My regards,

Widewing