Have we out grown these sims?

[Sharky]

Hi All,

With some of the posts in here lately I have been doing some thinking (yeah I know bad idea)

But what I came up with is perhaps AH isn't satisfying a lot of us is that we have "a been there done that" attitude in a newguy world.  What I mean is that most of the guys that are dissatisfied with both AH and WB seem to be the guys that have been doing the flight sim thing for many years.

As a result the "old hands" are looking for more of a challange, ie no icons, historical match ups, engine controls that you have to use correctly for maximum performance and some sort of environment that rewards smart flying and punishes the fly/die/respawn mentality.

Is the problem that we are just tired with smimming in the shallow end with all the little kids? (not a flame to the newguys, just an analogy)  Did we just out grow the market?  Are we looking for a sim that will be so difficult and have such a steep learning curve that it would only appeal to a handfull of the truely dedicated (read addicted)

And more scarey to think about, do we crave a sim that noone will ever make because the market that it would appeal to is too small to make it profitable?

So if this is true, how do we find excitment in the sims that are available to us?  I think that it is important that the sim developers remember to give the "old hands" a place to duke it out with the best of the best in the most difficult/realistic environment possible.  This will give the Top Guns a place to go and the newbies something to aspire to.  Keeping the old hands interested can only do the community good.

I'm not saying that HT and Pyro don't know or care about the older guys (I understand they have to make a product that the average guy can participate in so as to make a living)  I think they are doing the best they can and I applaude their efforts.  I just think they need to address these concerns before it starts to drag the community down.

Sharky

[This message has been edited by Sharky (edited 05-16-2000).]

[Ripsnort]

Q: Have we outgrown these sims?
A: No, the sims have outgrown my computer.  

[Badger]

Sharky....

Excellent observations, well thought out and quietly stated....<salute>

There is no black and white answer to this issue.

The nature of this type of software creates the proverbial "rock and a hard place" situation for any developer, especially a start-up.

If I were hired as an objective consultant by HTC, I would say to Hitech and Pyro, "you are doing exactly what you should be doing, which is quickly going for sign-up quantity to achieve critical mass."

Subjectively and emotionally speaking, as a high end realism seeking customer.......the current MA sucks big time !!!      

Regards,
Badger


[This message has been edited by Badger (edited 05-16-2000).]

[funked]

Yes Sharky.  I don't envy the job of the HTC folks because the most addicted and informed folks are the ones who will burn out first, and they are also the noisiest.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-16-2000).]

[Azrael]

 

Originally posted by Badger:
"rock and a hard place"

Sorry for peeking my nose into this thread, but as a non-english speaker I only know "a rock and a hard place" from a Sisters of Mercy song. What does it mean for you?

Az

[Replicant]

 

Originally posted by azrael:
Sorry for peeking my nose into this thread, but as a non-english speaker I only know "a rock and a hard place" from a Sisters of Mercy song. What does it mean for you?

Az

Ah, The Sisters... First and Last and Always...  

Some good comments Sharky and I agree that such a venture wouldn't be viable in such ways as to make a profit.  What could be done though is, say, an arena that's only available on one day a week or so many hours at different time zones with all the realism that is possible (with realism practice availble offline).  I am still very much learning so I am quite content with AH.  

Regards

'Nexx'

[Kieren]

 

Originally posted by azrael:
Sorry for peeking my nose into this thread, but as a non-english speaker I only know "a rock and a hard place" from a Sisters of Mercy song. What does it mean for you?

Az

It is a situation where, no matter what you do, the consequences are bad.

[Hangtime]

If yah want a steep learning curve; the closest thing to real you can get on a home PC, murderously difficult and unforgiving in the extreme to errors of omission or ignorance.. (IMHO)

Janes F15 in full realisim... the last sim I bought in a box.

Takes months to master; requires a coupla hours a week to stay current, and teaches a full appreciation for the current state of BVR ACM and the capabilities and difficulties of life in the jet fast lane.

Yes; I flew it, but still I love and prefer the prop sims; where a sharp eye; naked brainpower, SA and good ACM skills provide the edge. WWII era fighter combat is where the best of the best come to test their ACM skills... the superior hardware is in the eye; the hand and the brain. "The box matters little"

No; I'm not burned out in the AH MA.. the MA is big enuff; has enuff versitility and mission requirements to keep me interested. Flying with a good group of folks significantly improves game-play, and loners here flame and die quite quickly. And squeak loudest.

The old adage "on any given day" is as true here as it is in life... one day you get everything right; you fly in pumped; you check out pumped. The next; from the moment you get outta bed; sh*t happens; nothin goes right, everything 'sucks'.

For some, no matter what field they choose to play in, the grass alwys seems greener someplace else. The older wizer observers of this adage are aware that perspective is personal... the grass is plenty green enuff right here.

HTC is doin a fine job. We'll get what we want.. the road ahead looks great to me.  

Hang

 

[Sharky]

Hangtime,

Don't get me wrong.  I don't think the grass is greener over there.  In fact feature for feature AH holds it's own against any sim.  I am not saying anything bad about AH, I was just wondering if the premise that AH (and for that matter WB) is just getting old for the guys that have been flying it for 4-5 years now.

I guess that I was hoping for all the things that I've always thought were missing from flight sims.  Most importantly the fact that it continues to challange me.  I don't want to have things made easier or automatic so I can just get into the fight now.

I really would like to have to go through a checklist to start the engine.  I would really like to have to try and figure out if I am gaining angles in a fight instead of a range counter telling me.  

I really want to have to monitor the engine in my plane as I climb to altitude, and I want to be punished with poor performance or engine damage if I don't.  I really want to lose control of my airplane if I pull to many Gs and black out.

I really want to have some way of simulating banging my head against the canopy if I just slam the stick into the stops.  I really want to have to manage my fuel tanks to maintain trim (I know I can do that but I want my opponet to have to do it too)  

I really want to have to make sure I roll out smooth on the runway or I crash if I roll off the runway surface.  I really want to have to be careful when flying formation lest I crash into my wingman.

I really want to have to learn to slip the airplane while landing because of a bad cross wind.  I really want to have to get up close and personnel to shoot because turbulance is bouncing me around some.

I really want to have to manually open the radiator flaps and the cowl flaps when sitting idleing on the apron waiting to roll to prevent overheating.

Now I know I am never going to get all this but do you now understand what I'm looking for?  Aces High is a great sim as far as it goes, I just was hoping it was going to go farther.  Maybe it will and I'm just being impatient.

Sharky

[This message has been edited by Sharky (edited 05-16-2000).]