Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)

[thorsim]

Isn't weight of the aircraft factored into determining wing loading?  If you have two aircraft with identical wing loading but one is heavier then the other variable in the equation must also be different.  

If X+Y=Z and you change X and Z remains constant then Y must also change, Thor's last post doesn't make any sense to this layman.

wing size does not change but the effective weight of the aircraft does.  so 100lbs at 2G is 200lbs on the same wing ...



 

[Shuffler]

poor guy..........

[thorsim]

weight matters ...

http://www.redbullairrace.com/cs/Satellite/en_air/Video/Weight-Matters-021238615428953?p=1238611393596

[Raptor]

Weight does matter... for the structural integrity of the airframe. Ever wondered why the larger birds had larger wings? Imagine a P51 with the wings of a spit, those things would rip off in a second. Tomas McGuire was known to bend the wings of his P38 by pulling heavy G's.

[thorsim]

Weight does matter... for the structural integrity of the airframe. Ever wondered why the larger birds had larger wings? Imagine a P51 with the wings of a spit, those things would rip off in a second. Tomas McGuire was known to bend the wings of his P38 by pulling heavy G's.

 

not sure where you get that from what i posted ...

but at least you replied in agreement, the rest of the "weight in and of itself is insignificant fairie dust and combat flaps fix everything" usual suspects seem to have made their typical silent egress ...

poor guyS..........

it must hurt having nothing to say in response ...

[hitech]

not sure where you get that from what i posted ...

but at least you replied in agreement, the rest of the "weight in and of itself is insignificant fairie dust and combat flaps fix everything" usual suspects seem to have made their typical silent egress ...

it must hurt having nothing to say in response ...

Let me speak for almost everyone, it is not that we have nothing to say, we are just become very tired of having to respond to posts like this.

Insert Quote
well both at 5g indicates the same rate of turn (fixing all other parameters, of course), but i would intuitively think that the lighter plane would do it in a smaller area and or bleed less energy in the process of that turn as the forces it is dealing with are less by factors.

but mostly i am relaying what the pilot was explaining about weight advantages re the air races.  strictly speaking these factors would not be as relevant in TRW because high G dogfights were very much the exception and not the  rule.  that is why in TRW often times further higher faster were often the primary design goals.

however in the games high G dogfighting is much more common and in those situations the dynamic flight consequences should show up more than in the real world. 

We become very tired of discussing the above post with someone who,

1 Has and agenda
2 Lacks the knowledge to discuss the above statement.
3 Has no desire to acquire the knowledge to discuss the above statement.
4 Uses terms like "but i would intuitively".
5 Has been proven wrong so many times, most people with any real knowledge no longer wish to get involved in the conversation.
6 When cornered starts name calling with stupid statements like "but at least you replied in agreement, the rest of the  "fairie dust and combat flaps fix everything"
7 Actually believes that if he repeat the same BS over and over and over, that maybe someone would believe him.
8 Actually will make a statement that "He is right because no one is saying he is wrong any longer"
9 Shows all the traits of a classic Luftwhiner in the best tradition of other players such as Crump.
10 Has for more than a month continued to whine about flaps in almost every post he makes.

HiTech

[caldera]

Let me speak for almost everyone, it is not that we have nothing to say, we are just become very tired of having to respond to posts like this.

We become very tired of discussing the above post with someone who,

1 Has and agenda
2 Lacks the knowledge to discuss the above statement.
3 Has no desire to acquire the knowledge to discuss the above statement.
4 Uses terms like "but i would intuitively".
5 Has been proven wrong so many times, most people with any real knowledge no longer wish to get involved in the conversation.
6 When cornered starts name calling with stupid statements like "but at least you replied in agreement, the rest of the  "fairie dust and combat flaps fix everything"
7 Actually believes that if he repeat the same BS over and over and over, that maybe someone would believe him.
8 Actually will make a statement that "He is right because no one is saying he is wrong any longer"
9 Shows all the traits of a classic Luftwhiner in the best tradition of other players such as Crump.
10 Has for more than a month continued to whine about flaps in almost every post he makes.

HiTech

[thorsim]

yes once again when cornered attack the poster and once again ignore the information ...

seems there were several willing to talk yesterday ...

what is different today ...

besides yet another expert opinion that does not have a vested interest in the status quo contradicting the experts and situation here ...

it's your game and your board hitech you do what you want here, if you want to take this up on even terms you know where to find me ...

Let me speak for almost everyone, it is not that we have nothing to say, we are just become very tired of having to respond to posts like this.

We become very tired of discussing the above post with someone who,

1 Has and agenda
2 Lacks the knowledge to discuss the above statement.
3 Has no desire to acquire the knowledge to discuss the above statement.
4 Uses terms like "but i would intuitively".
5 Has been proven wrong so many times, most people with any real knowledge no longer wish to get involved in the conversation.
6 When cornered starts name calling with stupid statements like "but at least you replied in agreement, the rest of the  "fairie dust and combat flaps fix everything"
7 Actually believes that if he repeat the same BS over and over and over, that maybe someone would believe him.
8 Actually will make a statement that "He is right because no one is saying he is wrong any longer"
9 Shows all the traits of a classic Luftwhiner in the best tradition of other players such as Crump.
10 Has for more than a month continued to whine about flaps in almost every post he makes.

HiTech

[FiLtH]

Shield blocked and parried!


   I didnt read through all 9 pages, but Ive found in a well flown f4u vs a P40 the engine and flaps give the f4u a slight edge. Same as most opponents the p40 fights, spit9,109f for instance, the planes are so close that the edge goes to who can hold his nose up longest.

[Ack-Ack]

but at least you replied in agreement, the rest of the "weight in and of itself is insignificant fairie dust and combat flaps fix everything" usual suspects seem to have made their typical silent egress ...

I don't recall anyone that disagrees with you saying that at all.


ack-ack

[thorsim]

really ?

so what do you think people have been disagreeing with me about?

I don't recall anyone that disagrees with you saying that at all.


ack-ack

[BnZs]

Plane A weighs 5000lbs and has 200 square feet of wing to carry that weight. Wingloading=25lbs foot. Abit on the light side for a WWII fighter, but let's roll with it for simplicity.

Plane B weighs 10,000lbs and has 400 square feet of wing. Again, wingloading=25 lbs/foot.

Plane A is in a 5g turn...we could say that it effectively "weighs" 25,000 lbs. now. 25,000/200=125lbs that every foot of wing must support.

Plane B is in that same 5g turn. 50,000/400=125.

I said you needed to acquaint yourself with some basic aerodynamics. Apparently you need an introduction to grade-school level math as well.

well here is the crux of the red bull thing (as i understood it) ...

wing size does not change with g forces, but effective weight does.  so at 1 g flight a plane with identical wing-loading that is 100lbs heaver you say shows no disadvantage to it's lighter opponent (we disagree there) ...

however under 5 g's the effective weight difference is now 500lbs and the wing sizes have not changed so the heavier plane now under 5g's has a significant wing-loading disadvantage, does it not?

so would not the lighter plane with the same wing-loading tend to have an advantage in a maneuver fight as it's relative effective weight and loadings under G-loads becomes less and less as the Gs increase during maneuvers?

[hitech]

Thor you again post that a lighter plane should slow down less and turn better.

We gave you all the numbers to show that weight alone means nothing in flight performance. I will give you all the math again if you wish, but we have before and it still will not make any difference. You refuse to believe basic physics.

And hence why the debate about performance is completely over, because it is YOU who no longer has any valid argument that people agree with.

With you is like I make the statement If x = y and y = z, then x = z. You state clearly that you believe x does not = z.

Hence why try discuss anything with you.

So again what do you believe is wrong with any model? But be precise please and only make 1 claim at a time. If you try simply state that plane X should preform better because it is lighter, sorry it will not be worth answering.


HiTech

[Ack-Ack]

really ?

so what do you think people have been disagreeing with me about?

People have been disagreeing with you because you've shown to be rather clueless and has yet provide any data to back up your claims.


ack-ack

[BnZs]

I was nothing like this game. 

And a fencing match is nothing like actually stepping out on a cool morning to put cold steel in someone while they try to do the same to you...still, I'd rather epees continue to be made out of steel and not be replaced by foam "nerf" swords, make sense? 

From a technical standpoint...you see a bandit, you approach unseen, and blow him out the sky. 80% of the real "dogfights" you read about went that way. Similar things happen everyday in the MA.

Anyway, the tactics used in this game are as like or unlike R/L as the players choose to make it. The designer can only give us accurate tools. He can't force accurate tactics on us.