High Speed Spitfire Handling

[Baal]

Regarding the negative G cut out of the Merlin....

On 12 May 1941, MAP (Ministry of Aircraft Production) issued a notice to the effect that all new production Merlin 46 and 47 engines would be fitted with the Rolls-Royce negative G carburettor. (Engines used in the Spit MkV)

Earlier F Mk.V Spits with the Merlin 45 engine were retrofitted with the 'Shilling' orifice into the carburettor initially, and the adoption of a modified Bendix Stromberg carburettor later.

Negative G cut out was NOT an issue with the Spitter after mid-1941. It only effected MkI, II and early MkVs.

B

[aircat]

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[This message has been edited by aircat (edited 10-26-1999).]

[fd ski]

Verm - "fd" stands for Fighter Duel - which is what i used to play on Kali. That's the way FD players found each other.
Has nothing to do with spitfires.

As for highspeed handling - Spitfire's elevator was by far more controlable then that of 109. Roll on the other hand is a different story.

Negative E manouvers - funked correct me if i'm wrong, but don't then cause excessive E loss ? If i remember correctly "push over" was a last ditch manouver, and in Simulators such as AH, where con will follow you anywhere - it's quite irrelevant.

 

Frankly i found 51 in AH to be the easiest plane to kill in. I did have a good laugh when i was flying spitfire and had 4 P51's try to turnfight me at 150mph  


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Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
   www.raf303.org  

[funked]

Baal:  
While I don't doubt the MAP made that declaration, the RAE report of the flyoff between the Fw 190A-3 and the Spit IX (Fall '42) very specifically indicates that the negative g carburetor was not fitted to their Spit IX.  And in the summary they request that this carburetor be immediately fitted to all Spit IX in service.

Fd:  
It's frequently mentioned by early-war pilots that they were taught to use a bunt (push the stick forward sharply) when they needed to escape.  The negative-g moves were favored by the Luftwaffe because it allowed them to exploit the advantages of their fuel injected engines over some of the carbureted engines in RAF planes.  I think eventually they figured out that the British had cured the problem and they stopped trying to use it.


Other evasive stuff by the krauts:

"Hartman" escape which some Me 109 pilots used, this was basically an outside snap roll with lots of forward stick.  It didn't take advantage of any engine features, but it was painful to execute or follow.

A lot of Fw 190 pilots were taught to intentionally spin the plane.  Pulling the stick all the way back would invert the plane really quickly and bleed a lot of speed and altitude, but it recovered instantly when the stick was released.  Basically the 190 would "warp" straight down and end up in a dive where it could speed away.  I was amazed to read about this maneuver and realize how the Warbirds 190 will do the exact same thing.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-26-1999).]

[Baal]

You're right Funked, I went back and read that 1942 report and it does mention neg G cut out in a MkIX.

There were 20+ versions of the Rolls-Royce Merlin engine used in various Spit marks. Will try to dig up the info as to which suffered from neg-Gs and how many of each were used in various Spit marks.

B

[funked]

Baal if you can find that info I commend you.  

I got it wrong - the 1st mention wasn't in the "summary", it was in the attached letter from Sholto to the MAP.  

I for one don't have a problem with using the best possible configuration of a plane with a given designation.  For instance the Warbirds P-47D simulates a very late D with rocket racks, stabilizer fillet, etc.  Not all P-47D had this, all a lot did.

If we try to track down the equipment variations on every last plane that came of the line, we'll never get there.  On the Allied planes it will be difficult, and on the Axis planes it may be impossible because the records were destroyed.

Rather than saying "124 were built with the XXXX and 125 were built with the YYYYY so we'll use the XXXX version", I'd like to see the sim give the pilot a choice, or just give the plane the benefit of the doubt and use whichever version was better.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-28-1999).]

[Sorrow[S=A]]

Find that book written by Pope, he was a flight tester for spits in the war and his book has REAMS of info on each varient. I don't have a copy but I have seen at least 1 person here pipe up and admit to owning it.

FYI, J.E. Johnson flew a Mark IX until the end of the war and his was not a retrofit, the one time he was shot it was because of a stall under negative G following a FW.

[Vermillion]

Sorrow, can you provide us with an ISBN # ? It should be right inside the cover on the title page.

That will make it much easier for us to track down and order. Thanks  

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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,

[Sorrow[S=A]]

Verm: I don't actually own it. I read it in the Library about 5 years ago. But at least 1 person here has referenced it in a post and admitted to owning it. Unfortunatly I think his post is too old and it got deleted (I think it was the one on CS props?)

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If your in range, so is the enemy.