GATT: MC.205

[Nath-BDP]

Gatt,

The Nk and Ki.84 (prolly the best late war Jap fighters) didnt even have a max speed over 400 mph and POOR high alt performance, plus they suffered from unreliable engines.
Although Japanese Nk pilots regarded the hellcat as 'east meat' the F4U was by far superior because of its high altitude performance and top speed of 417 mph.
As one japanese pilot said: "The P-38 pilots, flying at great heights, chose when and where they wanted to fight... with disastrous results for our men."  

P.S. Model the B29 and those Nikis won't come close.

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"Then I played the trump. The Spitfire was clawing wildly through the air, trying to follow me in a roll, when I dropped the nose. The Thunderbolt howled and ran for earth. Barely had the Spitfire started to follow--and I was a long way ahead of him by now--when I jerked back on the stick and threw the Jug into a zoom climb. In a straight or turning climn, the British ship had the advantage. But coming out of a dive, there's not a British or a German fighter that can come close to a Thunderbolt rushing upward in a zoom. Before the Spit pilot knew what had happened, I was high above him, the Thunderbolt hammering around. And that was it--for in the next few moments the Spitfire flier was amazed to see a less maneuverable, slow-climbing Thunderbolt rushing straight at him, eight guns pointed ominously at his cockpit."

[-kier-]

Nath-BDP sayeth:
 

Although Japanese Nk pilots regarded the hellcat as 'east meat' the F4U was by far superior because of its high altitude performance and top speed of 417 mph.
As one japanese pilot said: "The P-38 pilots, flying at great heights, chose when and where they wanted to fight... with disastrous results for our men."

This assumes that everyone will play historically, in historical match-ups, at historic alts. The IJN guys are doing just fine in the N1K2 so far... and they will chew up the Corsairs just like they are chewing up P51's...  Give them a Ki-84 that can catch your Corsair at medium/low alts, and you will see.  

BTW, I have seen data that suggests the Ki-84 flew 426mph at alt, faster than the P51 and Thunderbolt at the same alt. I'll see if I can find it, it's from the "Profile Series" if someone else can find a copy...

[Nath-BDP]

Nakajima Ki.84 Hayate;

Wing loading 35lb/sq ft
Maximum level speed 'clean' 388 mph at 20k declining to 236 mph at 13k.
Service ceiling 34,450 ft.

Vought F4U-1 Corsair;

Wing loading 40lb/sq ft
Maximum level speed 'clean' 446 mph @ 26,200 ft, declining to 381 mph @ sea level.
Service cieling 41,500 ft.

As you can see, the hayate was essentially a Zero with more speed.  And at this time you have to remember that the P47N Thunderbolt was starting to see service in the pac, which was basicaly a P47M(the one that was specifically designed to shoot down V-1s) designed for longer range to escort the B29s.
This puppy had a top speed of 460 mph at 27k and 397 at 10k and a hella nice zoom climb. Now I'm not saying the Ki.84 was bad or anything, but Japanese powerplants were usually unreliable which impacted performance at high altitudes.

"Unfortunately the Shinden's flight characteristics were treacherous and demanded an experienced pilot."

Saburo Sakai

[-kier-]

Man, I don't know what you source is, or if you made a typo, but...

No way speed dropped that much at 13K! Even the zero is faster than that. All your points on reliability are well-taken, except this sim won't model that. The corsair is faster, no doubt. But you forget that the Ki84 was much more than a "bigger zero"; it had armour, guns, and a speed that put it on par with Allied a/c. Take out the reliability factor and dash in the nature of our arena (furball) and I would put the money on the Frank most of the time.  

BTW, the Shinden was a canard!  

[gatt]

Nath-BDP,

where the heck are you getting your data?
The Ki-84-Ia got 392mph at 20,080ft. Moreover, Francillon reports a test made in 1946 at the Middletown Air Depot on a restored late model Ki-84. Well, at combat operations weight, the a/c reached 427mph at 20,000ft using WEP. 3mph and 22mph faster than respectively the P-51D-25 and P-47D-35.

Anyway, we are not in RL but in online arenas, so give us Hayates and we'll chew up the big ugly blue bird ..   (like in WB)

Regards,
Gatt

[funked]

Also that 381 mph S/L speed for the F4U-1 is bizarre.

[-kier-]

Found my source.

This is from Aero Publishers, Inc:

 

In this evaluation program, the Frank was comparable to the P-51 Mustang and P-47 Thunderbolt. Although the P-51H and P-47N had a slightly higher top speed, the Frank climbed to altitude faster. The Frank was more maneuverable in turns and will turn inside either the P-51H or P-47N. The control forces were also lighter than those of most American aircraft.

[Nath-BDP]

What I MEANT to type for the Hayates top speed at 13k was 362 mph, I didnt have time to proof read.

I have 2 sources that says the Hayate's top speed was 388 mph at 21k.(Air international Volume 10 Number 1 Jan 1976 and Wings Midway to Hiroshima)

I'm not saying the Ki-84 wasnt comparable to the P51 or P47 in terms of performance, the Hayate is actually one of my favorite fighters of WW 2.

[Nath-BDP]

What I MEANT to type for the Hayates top speed at 13k was 362 mph, I didnt have time to proof read.

I have 2 sources that says the Hayate's top speed was 388 mph at 21k.(Air international Volume 10 Number 1 Jan 1976 and Wings Midway to Hiroshima)

I'm not saying the Ki-84 wasnt comparable to the P51 or P47 in terms of performance, the Hayate is actually one of my favorite fighters of WW 2.

[Hristo]

You people are incredible !

Thread started with MC.205, and went all the way from Dora, Bearcat, Ta 152, Il-2 to those F4Us and Ki-84s. And I never noticed how you did it  

Anyway, after the full circle, we get back to Dora  (MC.205 is on its way already anyway).

Pacific planes should be proportional to the sea area we have now in AH terrain - kidding, sorry  

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Hristo,
I/JG 51

Jagdgeschwader 51  Mölders


[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 11-09-1999).]

[Vermillion]

Sorry Hristo, but that arguement don't buy it  

The Ki-84 was a Japanese Army Aircraft, ie airforce. And the N1K2 was the land based aircraft of the IJN. Neither were Carrier based.

So if the Dora flew near the North Sea, or the Med. for that matter, it doesn't count either ? hehehe Now that does mean we can get rid of the Bearcat and the F4U topic tho <G>.

  Just kidding, Hristo

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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires "

[Nath-BDP]

Dora this, Dora that, give us a spit XIV or Tempest V, bye dora ;D

[Westy]

The 56th had P47M's in combat in 1945. I'd love one of those to go snacking on Dora's with.

--Westy

[indian]

Verm the F4U was land based by the US untill 44 late if I remember right. And sence I know HT like the plane we will get it anyway. Now we need a P38.

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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
  Cherokee Indian
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Where you can find the Key Commands in  files for Word6 Wordpad and text mode.

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[leonid]

I think Hristo is on to something here.  Given the fact that all strategic and tactical combat occurs over the almost entirely land-based arena in AH, I submit that Soviet, German and Italian aircraft be given the HIGHEST priority for present, expanding planeset.  My reasoning is simple: Russian front of WWII, the largest land war in HISTORY!!!

Okay, okay, just the ramblings of a VVS driver.

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129 IAP VVS RKKA