Author Topic: 150 avgas  (Read 1948 times)

Offline 2ADoc

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Re: 150 avgas
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2009, 06:48:00 PM »
In the Aviation industry, we used to be able to get 130, which was green, but they discontinued its production years ago.  Now we get 100 Low Lead, the lead helps to Lubricate and cool the engine.  In the lower compression engines if you Idle for long periods it will Foul the bottom plugs, and then you have to scrape the solids out from inbetween the Barrel and the electrode.  The Older engines Had high compression and did not have this problem AS bad.  Plus the Barrel/ electrode set up was different.  If you look at a stock Champion avaiton plug, and an older BG aviation plug the differences are really apparent.  The Higher the octane the Higher compression, the better fuel useage.  An aircraft designed for 100LL will run better and use less fuel if run on 100LL than it will if you were to run 87 octane, even if you do mix the Marvel Mystery Oil that you are supposed to.  Plus the engine will have less of a tendency to "Detonate" at low mixture settings.  The term "Detonate" means for the air/fuel mixture to combust before the piston reaches Top Dead Center.   Yes 150LL was used during WW2  and for a short time afterwards.  It was cost prohibitave to produce for the Civilian aircraft, and the Airfarce transfering to jets, made it un-needed and since most of the piston engine aircraft could use 130LL and 130LL was cheaper they quit producing it in any  quantities.  According to what I have been able to find the highest avaition fuel produced for general use is 100LL.  The guys that I know that are flying the Big Iron Warbirds are using 100LL and some mix Marvel Mystery Oil 6 oz. for every 5 gals of fuel.
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Offline Widewing

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Re: 150 avgas
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2009, 10:04:21 PM »
Some 145 fuel was shipped to the Pacific late war. Not sure if it was used operationally. Widewing would probably know.

You can read about US avgas production in detail in this study: USAAF Study No. 65, Aviation Gasoline Production and Control.

It may be downloaded using the link below.
http://www.afhra.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-090601-038.pdf


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Offline Angus

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Re: 150 avgas
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2009, 02:53:06 AM »
Do you recall Izzy claiming that the allies had very little of proper fuel? I can not forget that episode.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Scherf

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Re: 150 avgas
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2009, 05:32:06 AM »
He still does.
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: 150 avgas
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2009, 08:39:34 AM »
Barbi gets royally pwnd over the use of 100 octane fuel during BoB in these 2 threads,

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/for...uring-bob-16305.html
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/for...af-pt-2-a-20108.html


Thanks for the link Ww.

Offline Stoney

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Re: 150 avgas
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2009, 08:58:26 AM »
But what Holmes was asking in the OP was whether or not the P-47M and N in-game are modeled using 150.  They are not, as that motor could pull 72" on regular AVGAS, with water.  Who knows what they could pull with 150?
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

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Offline Gaston

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Re: 150 avgas
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2009, 05:13:09 PM »

   I remember clearly the incredible figure of a 4.75 min. climb to 20 000 ft. for a in-service P-47M pulled from service for the test. This was from a complete article on the P-47M. Full fuel, full ammo...

   To put it in perspective, the Me-109K supposedly does 4.5 min. (I heard the oil-circulation problem at nose-up angles, while using MW-50, was solved by the K model: Any clues on that? I know it wasn't solved on the G-14AS in November 1944 yet).

   The best climbing in-service prop fighter of WWII? AFAIK, The Spitfire Mk IX with 150 octane pulling 80" MAP: 4.2 min. to 20 000 ft.

   Worthy of note is that European theater P-38Ls used 150 fuel at 64" MAP, but the British mix of lead was poor and tended to foul spark plugs or cause other maintenance problems. There were no such problems with US-mixed 145 Av gas in the Pacific... P-47s and, to a lesser extent, the P-51s, accepted the British 150 fuel better.

   I heard of engine cutting-out problems on take off for the P-51 though, killing several pilots... Erosion of the valve seats was determined as the cause, and a new mix of the 150 fuel alleviated the problem only in very late 1944, if not 1945... These cutting-out issues were initially dealt with from July '44 by much more frequent maintenance and occasionally "reving-up" the engines in flight to clean them... I even think there was a call for a return to lower octane 130 fuel for the continent-based aircrafts, were maintenance was harder, but 150 fuel remained for UK-based fighters... This is all from memory, but should give a rough idea of the issues...

   Gaston 

Offline RTHolmes

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Re: 150 avgas
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2009, 03:50:53 AM »
But what Holmes was asking in the OP was whether or not the P-47M and N in-game are modeled using 150.  They are not, as that motor could pull 72" on regular AVGAS, with water.  Who knows what they could pull with 150?

ahh ty, must have been the earlier 2800s that could only get 70"+ by using 150 avgas.


The best climbing in-service prop fighter of WWII? AFAIK, The Spitfire Mk IX with 150 octane pulling 80" MAP: 4.2 min. to 20 000 ft.

yeah over 5000fpm in a IX :o
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Offline Angus

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Re: 150 avgas
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2009, 06:36:17 AM »
Todays old warbirds may be somewhat lighter than in war-service, and perform lovely at airshows and such. I recall Mark Hanna telling about 7 boost as a standard max today. Old engines he said. You can just begin to ponder what you could do with +25 ;)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Stoney

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Re: 150 avgas
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2009, 08:09:08 AM »
I don't know how it equates to boost levels, but I know they're cranking 120-140" of MP out of the Merlins in Reno.  Obviously that's for races and they regularly have engine failures, but it gives you an idea of the total potential of some of those engines.
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Offline Angus

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Re: 150 avgas
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2009, 09:13:09 AM »
Ahh, I forgot that. They really run them like mad. There is one episode of Top Gear with that, a two-seated P51 running with some odd 2000 (or maybe 3000) hp. Jeremy Clarkson in the back seat. And I cannot find it on youtube  :cry
Anyway, it is quite logical to take the careful approach on the precious old warbirds such as the Duxford ones, so one can only imagine the "tickle" of the pilot once the roaring engine brings you up.
BTW, the first Spitfire I saw flying completely baffled me with the lift. The guy really took a short run for the takeoff and went straight into a loop. I am not even sure that I could copy that in AH.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Bruv119

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Re: 150 avgas
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2009, 03:28:31 AM »
ahh ty, must have been the earlier 2800s that could only get 70"+ by using 150 avgas.


yeah over 5000fpm in a IX :o

me wants!!!    :x :banana:
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Offline Simba

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Re: 150 avgas
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2009, 05:58:40 PM »
Me too.

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Offline Kev367th

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Re: 150 avgas
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2009, 05:23:21 PM »
Spit LF IX used 150 in mid 1944.
After ironing out a few issues all 2TAF Spits were directed to convert/use 150 in Dec 1944. (LF IX, XIV and XVI)
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