Author Topic: B17 Flight model  (Read 309 times)

Gerd

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B17 Flight model
« on: November 30, 2000, 08:36:00 PM »
One of the things that I miss in the B17 is the turbo. According to the pilot's manual, the desired take-off speed is between 110 and 115 knots. With 1/2 flaps, full fuel, and bomb load this can be very tough to attain, especially without a turbo! You need to install one!

Also, according to the flight manual, take-offs are to be done with control surfaces and aileron trim tabs neutral. Yet, the auto take off options do not do this. Are you not modeling the take-off profiles of B17s accurately on purpose?

Offline juzz

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B17 Flight model
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2000, 08:42:00 PM »
Don't worry about the autopilot, it does things in mysterious ways that noone can understand...  

As for the turbocharger, how do you think it can climb to 35,000ft then huh? The real takeoff problem is that the runways in AH are on the short side for heavy bombers.  

Offline flakbait

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B17 Flight model
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2000, 12:18:00 PM »
Juzz, I hear ya. Trying to get a loaded B-17 up the same way they really did it is impossible. In loaded config, you can actually do a three-point take-off in a B-17F yet our G can't do that even when loaded with 25% fuel. Zeno's Drive-in has a film of this happening from WW2. I also suspect the P-38 FM is off a little, as another film of his shows a P-38 (F maybe?) holding steady with an Army spotter plane!

You're right, the auto-pilot is a creation of the Gods; only they know what the darn thing is gonna do next.

Zeno's Drive-In


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Gerd

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B17 Flight model
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2000, 04:44:00 PM »
Ah, the ol' "Don't look behind the curtain" kinda co-pilot.

I suspect the FM is a more smoke and mirrors than it is realistic. I trust the super-charger to be working at high altitude. Still, it would be nice to dial up a little boost on the take off!

Anyway, this may just be nit-picking. The sim is excellent in most respects.

I guess I'll just have to launch from A35 like an aircraft carrier.

Hans

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B17 Flight model
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2000, 07:13:00 PM »
Gerd, the Turbochargers don't do much at low level.

They are there to make the airpreasure of the incoming air stay a constant preasure even when getting up to 20,000 or 35,000 feet.

For example the Merlin engine's turbo only runs at 10% at sea level.  At 20,000 feet it finnally hits 100%, and past that the engine slowly looses power thru oxygen deprivation.

After all, an engine cannot hold as much as as you would like to pump into it.  It has limits.  Thick air at low altitude, plus the Turbo running at full blast would probably blow the engine block up as too much air would be in the cylanders.

Also, you do have control over the Turbo.  The + and - keys on the Keypad are the default controls.  Most leave them set to max (the default setting).  Your guzzling gas, but your plane is putting out max power.

The reason the B-17 wallows on takeoff isn't the B-17's fault.  The runway is too short.  Fighters can get off the ground in that space, but the B-17 needs a longer takeoff roll than there is concrete in AH.

I can get the B-17 up at 115 MPH (even 100mph), and before the end of the runway.

As for the autopilot, well technically you souldn't have it.  I wouldn't whine about that.

The Trim settings?  Well, there is a bit about why they are they way they are here in the online instructions manual.  Compromises have to be made.

 
Quote
The first thing to understand about trim is that there is no way possible to make it work
  like a real plane.  The joystick interaction with the controls is a completely different
  mechanical setup.

  In a real plane you would be holding the stick back to maintain level flight.  You would
  then turn the trim knob to relieve any pressure on the stick, without the stick moving.
   With a computer joystick, this simply isn't possible.  When you let go of the stick it will
  always go back to center.  Even force feedback sticks do not have the ability of
  adjusting stick spring center.

  The second problem is stick feel.  When Pyro and I originally did some early models for
  CK we tried setting real settings for elevator deflection.  For example, the spit's stick
  setup is capable of generating about 38 degress AOA, and the plane stalls at around 17
  degs AOA.  This would equate to pulling the stick less than halfway back and that
  would stall the plane.

  Now from a purely mathematical realistic point of view, that’s the way the plane was set
  up so it should be the same in the sim.  But if you step back and look at things another
  way, what did the plane feel like to fly and does it "FEEL" realistic when things change?
  When flying a real aircraft I sense very little stick movement.  I perceive much more on
  how hard I'm pulling, how much I'm grunting, how much the stick is vibrating, than how
  much I’m moving the stick.

  To accomplish some of this we use the stall horn, now the stall horn is NOT realistic by
  any means, but some method is needed to give you the same realistic feed back from the
  plane that you get in real life.  Therefore, you are forced to choose a method that works
  and gives the perception of reality.  We chose to setup controls that will let you stall
  with full stick deflection unless you are limited by control force.

  Now comes the trim problem.  At slower speeds, where do you scale the stick movement
  from and how do you add in trim?

  The method we have been using was to always give you x degrees of elevator travel
  than just add that degree to the current trim degree.  This leads to problems if you are
  slow with nose down trim, you could no longer pull the plane to the edge of stall.  This
  isn't how real planes fly in the slower flight envelope.  Very few planes could you not
  generate enough stick force to pull into stall at slower speeds.  This oversight is why
  people use trim in a slower turn fight and hence get an advantage by giving more up trim
  at slower speeds.

  Under 1.04 we have change the control setup slightly.  We now scale the elevator/stick
  deflection to the same ending angle no matter where the trim tab is positioned.

  There is another misconception that trimming your plane perfectly gives you a flight
  advantage.  Trimming your plane or just holding controls and pressing rudder to center
  the ball is exactly the same thing, and the plane will fly the same under both methods.

Hans.

[This message has been edited by Hans (edited 12-01-2000).]

Offline Rickenbacker

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B17 Flight model
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2000, 12:46:00 AM »
I think he might be referring to WEP, which the B-17 didn't have as far as I know. "Turbo" is misused to mean anything powerful these days.

And I thought the + and - keys controlled the propeller RPM. Doesn't seem to do toejam to my fuel economy in the P-51, but reducing manifold pressure does (with the throttle).


 

Offline iculus

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B17 Flight model
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2000, 12:19:00 PM »
A fully loaded B-17!...Try getting a fully loaded Lancaster of the ground with the runway provided!

<S>IC

Gerd

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B17 Flight model
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2000, 06:15:00 PM »
Hans, thanks for your reply. As for the autopilot, I don't use it, but will flip it on quick to see what kind of settings you folks like to use on take off. I generally zero out the trim settings.

As for the use of Turbo, it was used in take offs and is responsible for the loss of many aircraft when it failed. One particular incident involves a B17 from the 486th, on Oct 15, 1944. The aircraft lost the turbo on #4 on take off and crashed because of the assymetric thrust, and the loss of airspeed.

I'll give the +/- keys a shot. Is there someplace we can look at the runway lengths to see which airfields are most suitable for B17 ops? Are you planning to "lengthen" runways to be more Fort friendly?

Thanks,

Robin "Gerd" Smith

Offline Jigster

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« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2000, 09:15:00 PM »
As with most turbo-charged aircraft, the turbos on the B-17 kick when at full throttle. Because turbos are a function of RPM the engines are kept up to develope maximum power for take off. This goes for the P-38 and P-47 as well.

It's there, but like it's real life counterpart, it's not manual.

Offline Fishu

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« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2000, 11:33:00 PM »
squeak about B-17 then when we get realistically heating engines  
You couldn't keep throttle topped all the time without getting funny smoke from your engine after a while.

Offline Jigster

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« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2000, 12:11:00 AM »
And what makes you think that this will only effect the B-17?