Official P51 and 109G10 oil leak tests

[Nath-BDP]

I hope this gets fixed ASAP...

------------------
Nath_____
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"


"It felt as if an angel was pushing..."
-Reponse of Gen. Adolf Galland after flying the fourth prototype Me 262 in May 1943.

[StSanta]

Thanks nath. You just validated my whines about the P-51 oil leak thingy  



------------------
StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
while(!bishRookQueue.isEmpty() && loggedOn()){
30mmDeathDIEDIEDIE(bishRookQueue.removeFront());
System.out.println("LW pilots are superior");
myPlane.performVictoryRoll();
}

[Lephturn]

Woah up folks.  Don't be asking for it to be "fixed" yet.  We don't have enough data to know this is wrong yet.

You started well, but lets get some more facts before you attempt to "pass judgement".  A bit of input from Pyro would be good too.  11.5 gallons is a LOT of oil, but we still don't know how much the G10 had.  We need some more info.

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
 
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by chisel:
109G10- 11 gallon oil tank.

P51d -12 gallon oil tank.
.

Now you know it.

Fix it.

[Jigster]

Now let's get into location, amount of ducting, amount of oil in the engine, ducting, and tank when running, oil pump running capacity, PSI, and any auxillarys systems such as pumps, ducting, valves, etc.

As simple as you might want it to BE, it's not.

[Lephturn]

The size of the oil tank may not be the issue here, and it certainly isn't the only one.

Ram.  That kind of attitude isn't going to get you anywhere.  Nothing will get fixed because you demand it.  Posts like that just illustrate what kind of a fellow you really are.  

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
 
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"


[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 12-03-2000).]

[Zigrat]

Jigster, you that this data of 10 times longer before engine failure for 109 is correct? I dont see how it possibly could be...

it really IS that simple, unless the p51 had self sealing oil lines  

i tend to think the 109 is too short, not the pony too long.. if there *was* a leak, it would probably takke 30 seconds to loose oil pressure, then the engine could probably operate another 2 minutes or so just on the oil already in the engine.

just #s but the speed with which the engines cut out is kinda funy..


be nice to have partial engine power after damage, i know the r2800 could have cyylinders shot off that would cause reduced power but it would still run


anyways damage is pretty porked as is IMHO, i think too many deaths are from control surface/wingtip loss and not NEARLY enough engine/fuel fires.

[Toad]

Just thinking out loud here:

Oil cooled and liquid cooled engines have one thing in common. They both use oil for LUBRICATION.

Now the oil cooled engine also uses the same oil for COOLING. The liquid cooled engine does not.

Now if you drill the oil tank on an oil COOLED engine you lose both the COOLING AND THE LUBRICATION, right? Sooner or later, anyway.

If you drill the oil tank ONLY on a liquid cooled engine, you have lost LUBRICATION only. Can this be a possible difference in the run time?

That's just one consideration, too. Now factor in the RPM demands being put on the engine (idle vs redline) and differences in the cooling systems on different planes (does the Spit IX have exactly the same liquid cooling capability as the P-51D?)

I'd like to see this line of research continue. I think there's a lot of testing to be done. Are leaks static time? Does a 109 lock up in the same amount of time at idle or redline?

Just saying the "oil tanks are the same size. Fix it." isn't going to get it done right. In fact, it's a pretty shallow approach to the problem, isn't it?

Let's try and work it out without the old "conspriacy theory" BS and then hand it to Pyro.

 

[hazed-]

I have read a story where a p47 pilot flew home and when he landed he saw there was absolutely no oil in the engine and it got him home..i'll try to dig out book and find it.
However ive not read anything in any litrature about time for engines to run dry..surely this is guesswork?
I have no real problem with this just confirms my feelings whilst playing.

Hazed LW  

[Jigster]

Of course it's porked. There's no good reason why an engine would suddenly seize seconds after losing oil pressure.

First the engine would heat up dramaticly, along with power loss, and then a seizure. But that's not a modeled effect. (taking into account the engine was not hit either, but oil hits and non- "instant stop" engine damage seems to be one in the same.

That and some planes had emergency valve systems which allowed rerouting, such as bypassing the oil cooler (requiring reduced throttle) or the reserve tank, assuming that the oil doesn't catch on fire from the manifold.

Whether any of that makes a difference in AH, I dunno.

- Jig

[GRUNHERZ]

Hi

The P47 is irellavant to this discussion. The best way to do this would be to make liquid cooled planes loose power after 30 seconds of oil damage. Unless there is real and factual data about 109 and 51 oil system differences to support the outrageus advantage of 51 in this area it shoud be changed in a patch or in version 105.
Toad, both 109 and P51 use glycol type radiators to cool the engine, they do not use engine oil for cooling. The oil coolers just cool the oil and are a completly independant system from the glycol radiator setup for engine cooling.

thanks GRUNHERZ

[This message has been edited by GRUNHERZ (edited 12-03-2000).]

[Jigster]

Grun, you have to take into account that while the  main radiator cooling system is the primary, oil cooling contributes substantially to what the temperature within the block will be. Especially under emergency power.

This isn't a P-51 vs 109 issue, it's a 109 vs the rest of the plane set issue. Nearly all other other planes have a longer endurance then the 109.

I'd think it best to reserve comment either someone presents reasonable proof for the difference or against, or Pyro comments on this.

It is kinda silly that this is getting twisted into another US vs LW scenario.

[Jigster]

Btw the P-47 does have relevance to this, anything for a more complex engine damage system is worth stating  

- Jig

-- "Hey Look, I've lost my auxillary oil cooler, 2 pistons, my reserve oil tank, two spark plugs, part of a crank shaft, 5 fuel lines, and a magneto! Shame I lost my wing too, I suppose dodging the rest of the attacks and nursing it home could of been fun"

(my anti-cannon speech for the month)

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Jigster:
This isn't a P-51 vs 109 issue, it's a 109 vs the rest of the plane set issue. Nearly all other other planes have a longer endurance then the 109.

Actually those italian planes does have same problem and Typhoon..
Italians can be actually more feared of their engine - engine actually got killed before any other damage made when I tested it with funked.
not sure about spitfire anymore.. not many has shot down my super spittie  
(and it takes quite alot shots too before damage..)

[straffo]

 

This isn't a P-51 vs 109 issue, it's a 109 vs the rest of the plane set issue. Nearly all other other planes have a longer endurance then the 109.

You forgot the Yak9 wich is like the 109 ...