Author Topic: F4U-4B or F4U-1C  (Read 1622 times)

214CaveJ

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F4U-4B or F4U-1C
« Reply #30 on: November 24, 1999, 09:22:00 AM »
you're a very lucky man zoll.  Owning a corsair is a dream I've had for a while (and intend to bring to reality one day =).   I know, ya dinnae own it, but you're alot closer to it than I am =)
Hopefully the htc guys will listen close to what you've got to say about the hawg's fm in AH =)

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Air power is a thunderbolt launched from an egg shell invisibly tethered to a base.         -  Hoffman Nickerson

Offline hitech

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« Reply #31 on: November 24, 1999, 11:06:00 AM »
Cave you and i have the same dream.

HiTech

Offline Minotaur

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« Reply #32 on: November 24, 1999, 01:11:00 PM »
Zoll;
Windle;

Where is that hanger located?  Kind of looks familiar, but don't they all.    

Reminds me of a Yak my Dad helped work on.  He re-did the skirting around the epenage.  The finished Yak had bright green wings with a silver polished fuselage.  This Yak was modified to run in the Reno Air Races Unlimited Division.  I believe there was a F4U type radial hanging on the nose.  

I don't recall exactly, but I think the plane was owned by a man by the name of Bob Yancy.  That sound familiar?

I got to watch the Yak race once.  The Yak was extremly small compared to its competitors and was buffeted around like a Ping Pong Ball at a Hockey Game.  The "Rare Bear" just blew everything away that year.  

Bob Houver (name ???) flew his bright yellow P-51 over the races that year.  He was the race official.  Bob flew inverted officiating the races.

I also got to see the start of putting 2 MiG's (21's or 19's - Where is my Gingko?     ) together, to make one plane.  In the same hanger as the Yak.  The last time I saw that MiG it was painted bright pink.  I believe the plane is named "The Pink Panther".

Mino

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 11-24-1999).]

Offline Windle

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« Reply #33 on: November 24, 1999, 02:39:00 PM »
I share that dream as well        

HiTech, since you have a pretty darn good chance at achieving it in the next few years, make sure you give me a ring when it's time to locate a project (or a flyer).  I know where all of the anonymous and undocumented Corsair projects are and I'm in contact with all of the owners - been doing it for 15 years now.  I'm the man you need to talk to if you want to tap the market for the best deal.

'Till then I'll be pushing my own buttons to come up with the finances for my own.      

If you guys feel that over a half million dollars is too much to pay for the real thing, check out this link:

 http://homebuilt.org/pileggi/index.html    

It's an 80% scale Corsair.  It will be a few years before it flies, but it will be a hell of a lot easier to maintain than the real thing.  Personally I really won't be satisfied until I can at least get checked out in the real thing.  Give me 5 years and I'll be frequenting an airshow near you      

   

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[This message has been edited by Windle (edited 11-24-1999).]

drdoyo

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F4U-4B or F4U-1C
« Reply #34 on: November 24, 1999, 04:15:00 PM »
Hey Minotaur,

Unless you live near Kentucky, or wandered through, then you havn't seen this airport. BTW I've touched this project => with me bare hands. Had to wipe the drool off when Zoll took me to see it. I never knew how thin the aluminum around the sliding canopy frame is built up, or actually is not built up =P.

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Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #35 on: November 24, 1999, 04:36:00 PM »
Where in Kentucky? Maybe I can arrange a little visit  

I only live about 30 miles from Eastern Kentucky.

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-zoll-

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F4U-4B or F4U-1C
« Reply #36 on: November 24, 1999, 05:12:00 PM »
Well, I figured that post of mine would kick up a flurry of replys.    The Individual I work for is Charles Osborn.  The outfit is called Vintage Fighters and is located across the river from Louisville, Ky.  We currently have 2 P-51D Mustangs (Hurry Home Honey and Shangri-La, and the Corsair Project.  When I started working with VF we had the P-47D Big bellybutton Bird II and a VF-17 Painted FG-1D in Roger Hedricks #17 tri color paint job in addition to the stangs.  Both the P-47 and the prior FG-1D have been sold to make room for new projects.  The P-47D now carry's the colors of "Tarheel Hal".

I would be happy to share any info-insight that I can with you HT if there is anything I can help you with.  If there is one thing I must stress that has been wrong with all F4U flight models to date it is the Acceleration modeling.  I have been up in Mustang's and a lot of other high performance piston driven planes and the Corsair leaves them in the dust as far as acceleration is concerned.

Anyway if anyone would like more info from me about anything in my post Email me at jzollman@freewwweb.com  I don't want to tie up the message board.  I will try to stay with the topic heading in these posts.

Talk to you all later

Jerry Zollman
Lt. -zoll-
Executive Officer
VF-17 the Jolly Rogers 8X

Offline Minotaur

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« Reply #37 on: November 26, 1999, 01:44:00 PM »
Hitech;

If I ever did do any dreaming?

 

 http://www.thundermustang.com

Mino

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 11-26-1999).]

Offline Windle

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« Reply #38 on: November 26, 1999, 09:48:00 PM »
Or if you really wanna get down to pure scale rather than composite replicas....

     

 http://www.stewart51.com  

With the new 60-degree V-12 debuting in 2000 for this little monster it will finally be giving the Thunder Mustang a run for its money.     The new engine is in all basic respects a 70% scale Merlin.  The cool thing about the 'Stewart 51' (pictured above) is that it is literally a scale version of the real P-51 drawn from the original North American blue prints, and constructed from all the original materials.  Both the 'Stewart 51' and the 'Thunder Mustang' are 70% scale Mustangs, but the S51 gets my vote due to its authentic design & construction.  Both have engines capable of 1000+ horsepower.  

Here's a better view of what a finished out Stewart 51 can look like.  You can't get looks like this with fiberlass.....

     

And the S-51's new 60-deg V-12 engine...

 

Also the complete S51 package (with engine) is roughly half that of the Thunder Mustang.  Both of these planes would make great second choice aircraft for the aspiring warbird owner on a shoestring budget.      

 

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~Lt. Jg. Windle~

VF-17 The Jolly Rogers 8X
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[This message has been edited by Windle (edited 11-26-1999).]

Offline jedi

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« Reply #39 on: November 26, 1999, 10:26:00 PM »
Here's how I'd do the AH RPS, if there ever is one...

Make it, say, 28 days long (or maybe 26 or 30, so Monday isn't always the same plane set).  Then, each aircraft should be available for the same PERCENTAGE of the RPS that it was operational during the war.  So if the F4U-1C was in operation for 6 months out of the 60 or so months in the war, we'd get it for three days.  Who could argue with that?  

Now for the "controversial" part.  Since we don't allow any American planes until they enter the war (even though some of them were flying operationally before the Amis entered the war--P-39, P-40, F4F) then we ALSO phase out the Italian and German planes when they surrender    So the "historically important" Dora flies in the RPS for about the same amount of time as the "historically insignificant" F4U-1C, and the last few days of the RPS represent the last few days of WW2 more "historically."  Of course we'd need a couple more of the Japanese uberplanes like the Ki-100 to make this work.  

(Hehe only halfway serious there, but I AM looking forward to the "logical" explanation of why the LW planes should be available to the end of the RPS when the American planes aren't available until they start fighting--I mean, if we "arbitrarily" end the RPS in Q2 1945, why not arbitrarily START it in Q4 1941?  You can always do Battle of Britain as a separate scenario-type event)  

Always dangerous to use "history" as your basis for argument in one of these discussions.  You never can tell how someone twisted will twist it to his own advantage    Actually I think I'd start the RPS in Q1 1940 and include the Winter War and Battle of France if we could, which would exclude the Yanks even longer, but I WOULD cut out the LW in Q2 1945.  Fair's fair, and historical's historical.  The last 3 months of the war was an Allies vs Japan affair.

--jedi VF-17

-zoll-

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« Reply #40 on: November 27, 1999, 09:25:00 AM »
Concerning the Scale replicas: I like the S-51 project for the all metal, realistic, to scale aspect of the plane.  But, it would just about have to be a single place plane with no chance for a jump seat in it being it is so to scale?  I haven't seen it up close so I don't know this for sure.  I can tell you one thing for sure though.  In the real P-51D without the TF-51 fuselage you have a very limited space for the backseater as it is now. It would be damn near impossible to fit a full grown person in the back of a 70% scale of the real one.

Now when you look at the Thunder Mustang.  It has a modified fuselage shape at the cockpit area to accomidate not only two seats but an instrumented back seat you can fly from.  In my honest opinion I wouldn't own something that I couldn't take someone else up in to share the wonderful experience in.

But, it definately cost a lot more for the Thunder kit.  I know this because we were negotiating for a Thunder Mustang kit when we ran across or new FG-1D project.  

Talk to you all later

Jerry Zollman
Lt. -zoll-
Executive Officer
VF-17 8X

Offline Windle

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« Reply #41 on: November 27, 1999, 11:42:00 AM »
I had the chance to see the Stewart 51 and the Thunder Mustang up close at Oshkosh and both had practically identical sized cockpits and canopies.  The cockpit and the airfoil are two things that have to be redesigned for a scale aircraft in order to make them work efficiently.  Since the Thunder Mustang is made of composite, it has a very refined appearance with no rivets and very few body seams.  It really is a thoroughbred aircraft.  The S-51 on the other hand has all the major manufacturing points of the full sized version.  It isn't as milky smooth as the Thunder Mustang, but much to my liking it comes closer to the nostalgic appeal of the real thing.  

Lately I had been leaning toward the Thunder Mustang as my favorite due to its high output and tip-top performance. This was until I saw the unveiling of Stewart's new V-12 at Oshkosh this year!  This point tipped the scales back toward the S-51 for me.  Not only would I be able to have an all metal scale Mustang, but it now could be fitted with a 'replica' Merlin powerplant which allowed it to compete with the TM.  The only thing the TM still offers over the S-51 IMO (other than perfectly clean lines) is that the engine it uses is state of the art technology.  No worries about mixture, carb heat, etc.  You literally just push a button to start it and go with throttle up!  

For the Mustang enthusiast who wants 'executive' feel and modern technology with the appearance of the world famous fighter then the Thunder Mustang is THE aircraft to have.  It has the vintage lines with a more 'Ferrari' styling.

 

For the enthusiast like me who prefers the 'heavy iron' feel, along with all the quirks and hands on tweaking of the original machine, the S-51 is just the ticket. It has authentic construction and more of a 'classic hot rod' feel.

 

All in all, both aircraft are magnificent offerings from two great companies.  The best is yet to come in a couple of years when both will be battling it out around the pylons at Reno.  It will make for some interesting competition to see both of these 1000+hp mini unlimiteds pushing for the win.  

 

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~Lt. Jg. Windle~

VF-17 The Jolly Rogers 8X
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Offline Duckwing6

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« Reply #42 on: November 29, 1999, 02:07:00 AM »
now stop spawning this F4U THREAD with MUSTANGS  
go search up an F4U Kit that's of aluminum too LOL

(have to admitt that this Steward 51 is a real beauty! but as zoll said a single seater  isn't that great unless it's a REAL F4U  

SC-Duckwing6

Offline Windle

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« Reply #43 on: November 29, 1999, 12:22:00 PM »
I've had the outline of an all-aluminum, scale F4U for a few years now.  It rivals the S-51 in concept and also shares the 70% scaling. This seems to be the perfect size to bring warbird aircraft down to a realistic scale for general aviation.  The great thing about the F4U is that it is about 1/4 larger than the P-51 overall with a bigger cockpit to boot.  Due to this, the cockpit restrictions are less critical in a scale example.

Having the scaled airframe drawn up is not the real problem.  The one nagging fault with the 70% scale Corsair (and all radial powered warbirds to date for that matter) has been the powerplant.  So far, various scale kits of the Corsair have offered engine options that were less than ideal.  The W.A.R. replica utilized an under powered inline (yuck) Continental engine to power its ½ scale offering of the F4U.  IMO ½ scale is far too small to be considered anywhere near comfortable.  The ‘Corsair 82’ is a very promising 82% scale F4U replica that will use the P&W R-985 for motivation.  This is a great engine, but the lack of horsepower (450hp) necessitates the use of a small two-bladed propeller. The resulting size of the aircraft due to engine diameter coupled with the small prop kills the illusion of the real Corsair.

About 4 years ago I discovered the perfect engine – a Russian unit called the M-14P that outfits some of the new breed of Russian aerobatic aircraft.  It is a 9-cylinder radial that offers a perfect 70% diameter when compared the Corsair’s P&W R-2800, thus allowing the cowling and airframe to be downsized accordingly without any glaring discrepancies in scale image.   Though it is much smaller than the R-985 to be used on the ‘Corsair 82’, it still offers the same 450+hp.  This mated with a smaller 70% scale airframe would really be a performer.  The ‘Corsair82’ was originally going to use this engine, but the manufacturer didn’t like the fact that it turned the opposite direction (counter clockwise) compared to the R-2800.  He also has affinity for the Pratt & Whitney logo.   The M-14P also has an inefficient inverted oiling system.

In the name of performance and scale realism, I’ve come up with the idea to create a prototype ‘scale R-2800’ by using components of two relatively inexpensive M-14P radials to create a double row 18-cylinder engine.  This would necessitate a custom fabricated crankcase, crank, cams, and gearbox for proper prop rotation, but the stock cylinders, rods, and other redundant parts could be retained.  The unsatisfactory oiling system could also be reengineered in the process.   Once the concept engine was proven, producing them in numbers should be inexpensive enough to form a viable basis for recreating a fairly affordable scale F4U.  This engine would also validate (finally) the creation of true to scale P-47’s, F6F’s, FW-190’s, etc. as well.  In theory this potent little powerplant would offer close to 1000 horsepower and would make these scale, radial powered fighter replicas perform on par with the Thunder Mustang and Stewart 51.  Imagine the new category of air races at Reno – the ‘Mini-Unlimiteds’!    

As far as a two-seat version of the 70% Corsair is concerned, the only viable option would be to offer an F2G ‘bubble canopy’ version.  Even on the full sized Corsairs, altering the rear fuselage and cramming a passenger in there is an obtuse concept.  This is another factor that makes the Corsair a risky investment in the scale aircraft market.  The F2G would work great, but only 10 of them were produced making them an obscure candidate for satisfying the popular desire for two seats in a scaled version of the famous WWII fighter.  I, for one, would sacrifice the second seat for the chance to operate my own scale F4U Corsair.  I’d just have to convince my flying buddies to build one of their own, and to come fly formation.  

So far funding (of course) has been the only obstacle in seeing the project through.  Due to my involvement in other projects, locating an engineer to nail down the specs on the new engine components, and contracting a fabricator to build up the proof-of-concept prototype is a possibility that’s out of reach for moment.  In the future (once I put enough capital together or locate willing investors) I plan on at least seeing the prototype engine through.  If I can’t follow through with the entire ‘true to scale’, radial-powered warbird concept, I might at least be able to jumpstart it by offering up the first operational proof-of-concept scale powerplant.  As I stated before, drawing up plans for the airframe design is relatively painless compared to fabricating a new, composite-engine prototype.  For a flying example of a true 70% scale F4U constructed in an authentic fashion using authentic materials, including the concept engine, the cost would easily reach over the $1M mark.  This is a relatively inexpensive investment IF one could prove there is a large market for the aircraft.  The fact that a popular style second-seat version of the F4U would be practically non-existent narrows these possibilities down to a point where serious investment in this idea is questionable at best.  One alternate possibility would be to offer another model (such as the bubble-canopied version of the P-47) that would have no second-seat restriction, and use it to open up this niche market.  Following the projected success of this scale P-47 model, an F4U could be offered based on initial profits.  The problem for me is that I don’t have a deep passion for the P-47 like I do for the F4U.  As far as my involvement goes, if I find the chance I will probably follow through with the engine proof-of-concept and, if I’m lucky, create a single prototype example of the 70% scale F4U itself with no intention of marketing the aircraft.  At that point I would see where the demand stood.  If the prospect was promising, I (with a functional prototype in hand) could rally investors to fund the project based on initial orders placed by interested builders (much like the Flug Werk FW-190 project).

All in all, a no-holds-barred true to scale F4U project is indeed doable, but taking into consideration all of the above factors you can see why no one has jumped in with both feet to tackle the idea.  The market is waiting for a creative mind with more money than sense to throw together a prototype and prove the viable reality of such a machine.  Once someone shows up at Oshkosh with a living, breathing proof-of-concept vehicle the investors will flock.  It’s working up to that point that’s made the creation of this wonderful idea so difficult.

 


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~Lt. Jg. Windle~

VF-17 The Jolly Rogers 8X
      Skychrgr@aol.com
   


Offline Duckwing6

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« Reply #44 on: November 29, 1999, 01:09:00 PM »
Can't really belief that the M14 should have an inadequate inverted oiling system as it powers unlimited class aerobatic airplanes like the Sukhoi 26 and 29 and the trusty old Yak52 all of which have certainly no negative G restrictions.
So that should be no problem..
Building the engine as a twin row with the new cams, crankshaft and STILL have the inverted oil .. well dunno that meight be some engineering .. also building a Prop reduction unit is a pretty tough job for Joe homebuilder.. if youd offer the complete propulsion package thou as a firewall forward kit you might get some real attention
GREAT IDEA thou   really looking forward to see that !

Phil (DW6)