Maintaining Corner Velocity

[SgtPappy]

So we all know that the corner velocity of an aircraft translates to the tangential velocity an aircraft can achieve that gives it its best turn rate.

When in an energy fight, would it always be best to maintain corner velocity? Do most E-duels boil down to who maintains corner velocity best and by extension, energy (i.e. If you maintain corner velocity, do you maintain energy too)? I notice that maintaining a great turn rate helps in a vert rolling scissors and many other maneuvers.

If maintaing corner velocity is essential, how does one do it efficiently? Should I just avoid the urge to pull tonnes of G's in addition to using vertical maneuvers?

[JunkyII]

I dont know anything about corner velocity, I know I can do certain things in my plane that he cant and I try to use them to get the best of him

[humble]

My take is that you manage relative position and performance. It's your relative corner velocity in comparison to your opponent viewed within the context of intent (both yours and his). Are you offensive or defensive? + or - E? Are you early in an engagement or already committed to the fight? Are you in a multi con environment or a pure 1 on 1? A lot of variables come into play. If you look at the very beginning of the film with the 2 spits you'll see a relatively high speed defensive turn vs the higher spit. The intent is to diminish his E advantage before I dive out...otherwise he'll just run me down. He's pulling more G's so relative E state closes up as he scrubs E, allowing me to then dive out with better results...

[SgtPappy]

Assuming it's an equal E duel situation. Of course, the one who hiccups first must capitalized upon.

The problem with me is that once I get into a fight, I'm often defensive. I initiate a rolling scissors or some out of plane maneuver so that they have to change their lift vector in order to get another shot. A lot of the time, though, I find myself out turned or otherwise dead when the enemy finds a good angle, almost miracurously.

I'm wondering, if I maintain corner velocity for most of the fight, would it be possible to find angles on him, using multiple pursuit styles? I notice I most often have the enemy in my sight when I'm looking straight up.

[humble]

Sometimes you need to fly not to loose. I think I've got a clip that might help show what I mean. I'll look for it....

[SgtPappy]

You mean I shouldn't fly with too little +G right?

Awesome! Alright, I'll watch that film when you've got it  

[humble]

I either didn't keep or didn't film the fight I was thinking of.

Lets review your comments for a second. There is no such thing as an "equal E" duel vs a good stick. He's either going to optimize for angles or E and he will not want to be even with you. Are we talking same plane dueling rules or an MA engagement...big difference. I'm much more effective in an MA encounter then I am in a duel. I also prefer to be in different planes. I'm looking for an exploitable advantage of some sort. Either way once your "defensive" you lost either angular advantage or E or both. I'd start right there and work with a trainer to get an evaluation of your tactics and your understanding of those tactics. My guess is that you've got a misconception or incomplete grasp of something relatively fundamental thats leading to the point your at...

[SgtPappy]

 Perhaps after exams I can put in a month of training, but I've been saying that for months now    Gots'ta have the monies. But you're right. In terms of even E, I mean of course at the beginning of the duel.

Fights encountered most often in the old H2H, when I duelled friends 1 on 1. Sometimes we flew the same aircraft as I believed that it acted as a sort of control variable when fighting. It made it easier to evaluate the loser's mistakes when we flew the same plane since, of course, a 109F can do anything the other guy's 109F can do, provided they have the same fuel load. Most of the time, being in the same plane, we would decend into fights in the weeds, trying to gain angles on each other. Everytime the duel became a TnB fight, I'd disengage and set up again.

[mtnman]

...of course, a 109F can do anything the other guy's 109F can do, provided they have the same fuel load. 

But not necessarily at the same time, or at the same point in a fight. 

A higher-E 109 can't do what the lower-E 109 can do right now.  Or vice versa.  At any point in a fight, unless you're just spinning around in a lufberry circle, each plane will generally be capable of doing subtly different things at a given point.

Another way to look at it... Both 109's are flying vertically at 250mph.  One is nose-up, one is nose-down.  They're are things at that moment that each plane can do, that the other can't.  One can accelerate, one can't.  One can pull back on the elevator for a tighter turn than the other.  One can pull back on the elevator for a larger-radius turn than the other.  One can extend...  See what I mean?

Capitalizing on these differences is the key.  An "equal" fight is seldom truly "equal".  Creating these differences is also important.  And creating the differences so that your opponent takes the predictable choice you wanted him to take is another.

[mtnman]

I either didn't keep or didn't film the fight I was thinking of.

Lets review your comments for a second. There is no such thing as an "equal E" duel vs a good stick. He's either going to optimize for angles or E and he will not want to be even with you. Are we talking same plane dueling rules or an MA engagement...big difference. I'm much more effective in an MA encounter then I am in a duel. I also prefer to be in different planes. I'm looking for an exploitable advantage of some sort. (I would add "create" an exploitable difference/advantage here...  Either way once your "defensive" you lost either angular advantage or E or both. I'd start right there and work with a trainer to get an evaluation of your tactics and your understanding of those tactics. My guess is that you've got a misconception or incomplete grasp of something relatively fundamental thats leading to the point your at...

It's SICK how similar my take is to yours!

[stran]

When in an energy fight, would it always be best to maintain corner velocity?

to answer his question, No. to maintain corner velocity is to keep your speed up and though maneuvering you would have to go nose low to 'maintain corner velocity' which goes against building E. and Definately No when it comes to rolling scissors where you want to scrub your speed to create the overshoot.

in my energy fights the speed is always dynamic. i'm always trying to gain energy when i can just to burn energy to go for the shot or force the opponent to burn even more energy.

so.. maintaining corner velocity and maintaining energy are not the same. the only time i specifically accelerate to CV is when i need to make a break turn, then after the gun pass i quickly roll level nose up or if the opponent is really pressing the attack i would have to try to reverse. don't just think about what your plane is doing, but what his plane is doing, and where it's going.

[humble]

It's SICK how similar my take is to yours!

I always felt we had fairly similar views on how to go about things going back to the times we got a chance to wing together.

[Gooss]

This is something I picked up from TC.  If I got it wrong, don't blame him.  TC used to say something like to trim your elevator to the bottom of the L on the trim gauge when it looked like you were entering a fight.

TC tends to fly hogs.  I tend to fly hogs.  In an F4U. trimming elevator to the bottom of the L is just about corner velocity.  So, in a fight the nose of my plane wants to go to the speed that gives me the best turn rate.  I thought that sounded okay.  About that time, I read in Shaw to keep my speed up in a fight so that I could still maneuver in the vertical.  Corner velocity allows me to do that, too.

I can still use throttle and flaps to get around in a tighter circle when I get slow.  Then I can raise flaps, unload a bit, and when my nose gently pulls up, I'm at corner velocity. 

If I'm getting bored to death by a BnZ'er, I'll let trim keep, or get me back, to corner velocity so I can avoid those monotonous passes until one of us does something stupid.  I always hope that I can build up some E this way, too, when defending against the BnZ.

At corner velocity, I think I'm at a speed that allows my plane to perform well in a turn and in the vertical.  Setting your trim may help your fighting, too.

Of course, Mtnman and snaphook will tell you how predictable I am when fighting, so that may not be a good idea.

HONK!
Gooss

[Rolex]

Here are some excellent threads and comments concerning corner velocity:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,231950.0.html

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,213783.0.html
 

[Spatula]

In a nose-to-nose fight, the aircraft with the better turn radii tends to have the advantage. In a nose-to-tail fight, the aircraft with the best turn rate tends to have the advantage.