A couple of -E fights...

[humble]

Posted this on another thread but on reflection thought it was worth posting as a separate thread. Basically back to back fights (D Hog vs spitfire). The is a basic down and dirty angles fight and is a reasonable example of a close quarters reverse to immediate engagement. The real "trick" is in presenting an enticing enough shot without actually getting killed doing it. The better and more compelling that look the more likely you are to get the spit drawn into a fight were you can use his difficulty bleeding E to your advantage. The 2nd fight is an interesting contrast since the spit driver refuses the bait and sets up more of what I call a vertical 2 circle fight. Here I need to work a lot harder to finally compress the two circles to where I can reverse him. jimmy77 is on the right track and just gets a bit to aggressive or impatient. Basically he's got position but i'm more or less controlling the fight, one of the big stepping stones is learning to convert a positional advantage to control and then control to a winning position.
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/film56.ahf   

[Sonicblu]

Thnks for the films Snap. 

[humble]

glad U enjoyed them. When I looked at the clip I thought the contrast in the two fights back to back was a bit unique. Basically to totally different sequences leading to the same end game. While a lot of it is somewhat hog specific a lot can be used equally well in most other planes.

[Big Rat]

Hey Snap,

You're getting pretty good at the barrel roll defence/rolling scissors .  Both spits fell for basically the same thing "Greed", both went for a shot they shouldn't have and got themselves in a rolling fight with a much better rolling and speed bleeding aircraft. Snap does this mean you'll be flying hogs vs a20's for now on   Probably about as likely as me to stop flying hogs and fly a20's exclusively. 

 
BigRat

[humble]

I'm actually a hog driver from way back. I used to be much much better in the hog then I am now. For awhile (way back) Mt flew with us (71SQD) from time to time and we'd wing hogs together. I've got more then a few films of us wading into a passle of red and flying out the other end with a dozen or more pelts between us. I'm slowly going back to the D hog as my primary ride although I fly everything....

[mtnman]

Nice films Snap! 

Those were some fun sessions winging with you guys.  I might have to try that again...  It seems like every time I think about it the knights have too many folks on though.

[shiv]

Thanks for that, much appreciated.  I'll be trying that first reversal for sure.  And the patience too. <<S>>

[wgmount]

Nice ones. When I try that I always get shot. I will figure out a way to post films tomorrow and see if I can't get the Barrel roll defense/rolling scissors figured out. I got into one with shiv the other night,that I didn't film, but lost it as I usually do.
I sort of know what it's supposed to look like but I just can't get the execution down.

Flushed

[Koendog]

That was a sweet move you put on the first Spit to reverse the fight...gonna have to give that one a shot! Great film!

[humble]

If you look at a number of films of this type of reverse you'll find a few pretty common denominators. The 1st thing you need to decide is if you have the spacing for a reverse or if you are in fact defending a guns solution. The same moves that set up the reverse can offer a relatively simple plane form shot if started to late. So if your getting whacked early then your misreading the situation and choosing the wrong tactics or your still learning the techniques. This is where film helps. If your presenting a full plane profile in guns range your way to late in starting your reverse. If he's hitting your front quarter then its technique and timing....

Looking at the clip if you go to 1:54 seconds you'll see the spitty clearly in the views at 800 out (830 on the range info). One of the 1st things I tend to cover when i'm working with someone is understanding shot windows. The shot you "see" at 1000 is gone at 800 and the 800 yd shot gone at 600. So the "good" pilot flies technique and lets good fundamentals generate a quality shot. Here I'm presenting a shot that looks great...if he was actually able to take it. By the time an actual shot window occurs circumstances have changed significantly. Just moving up to 1:55 (where my view shifts) look at the difference in relative orientation. Yet he's flying to the shot window. Correct tactic here for him is to rotate wings to level and go up. Now still at 1:55 you can see I'm beginning to rotate my lift vector again. I've gone from out of plane to him at 800 to in plane at 700 and now as he actually gets into guns rangr I'm moving out of plane to him.

At 1:56 with malta at a range of 491 freeze the clip and find him in my front up right view (5,9 on num pad). To me this is a pretty good idea of what view you want to see for this move to work well.

1) look at relative wing position and imagine a line perpendicular up thru the cockpit. Flip to the 5.8 view in my plane...thats the orientation in space of my lift vector so my "turning circle" frozen at that moment is an offset loop of some type. Where is the spits lift vector pointing and what is the orientation of his turning circle at that very moment. Can his "turning circle" intersect with mine?

What you have is a visual illusion from his side. He "see's me" in a position where he can pull lead but my lift vector is oriented significantly out of plane to him and in such a way that he's got very minimal ability to exercise control authority that would set up a shot. One thing you'll notice in just about all my films is my ability to keep the bogey in my views almost all the time. A second is a fairly high number of little adjustments in relative orientation. Most of my flying style is oriented toward this "management" of relative lift vectors. As a general rule I only wan't to be "in plane" if I'm going to shoot you or if my plane has a decided advantage in the turning circle at that point in time.

2) At no time is either plane on the edge of the flight envelope (except in the little zoom the spit makes). I'm not an overly skilled bleeding edge guy. I fly well but most of the uber sticks can flat out fly me in to the ground literally. So this is a manipulation of turning circles not a pure contest of airmanship on the edge of stall. When we talk about lift vectors 3 elements come into play.

a) speed

The faster you are the bigger your turning circle will be, regardless of plane type. A 300 mph spit has a wider circle then a 200 mph 152. Now each plane has a best speed where it is most efficient and plane type does matter but still beyond a certain point speed determines relative performance. Some planes bleed E faster (on purpose or not), as a general rule spits keep E better then most so they dont slow down as well for example.

b) lift vector orientation

your lift vector is literally a line representing the lift generated by the plane...the faster you are the longer it is. The length controls the minimum circle diameter...the faster you are the bigger the circle. The orientation controls the direction of that circle. If its vertical you'll loop...horizontal and your in a flat turn. Your plane can only go in the general direction of the lift vectors orientation at that given moment.

c) control surface authority

Your control surfaces are what you use to reorient your lift vector and change the direction you are flying. Rudder, elevator and aileron allow you to manipulate your lift vector. How responsive each is effects your ability to fight your plane. Not all planes have equal control surface authority and most have issues at high or low speeds or both. Some planes have combat flaps or dive brakes...all can effect your ability to control your plane.

So when you see this type of film my own recommendation is that you focus on the relative lift vectors at the critical times of interest to you. Look at the fight via my views (or whoever's film your watching) and try and imagine the possible path the bogey can take. The better you get at "reading lift vectors" the easier it is to both avoid on defense and to manage a guns solution on offense.

[Koendog]

Humble,
That move was terrific for that situation (i.e. high yoyo into a scissor with the Spit ~1.5-2.0K out)...and I noticed you used a similar scissor maneuver later on the second Spit, although he was much closer. Do you have any other film of a bogey much closer (<500 behind you) showing a good defense and reversal? I'd be super interested if so...

[humble]

Probably not, at that point it's a guns defense and a more pure barrel roll overshoot. It might look very similar but its not at all the same. I'm never going to intentionally let someone inside 1.2 or so without initiating a defense unless they are significantly +E. Most of the time when I die its as a result of guessing wrong on relative closer rate due to poor SA or a multi con environment however some guys are just exceptionally good at controlling closure or countering my evasive's. Going from memory the 2nd fight has a significant move buried in it just before the end game. I set up an in plane turn and more or less give him his lead and then pull a "goose I'm gonna hit the brakes and he'll fly right by" move back to the left. To paraphrase the Dos Gringos song "two is blind" "he actioned left when I swear to Jesus he briefed right". Basically I showed him a move to the right and then pivoted left at warp 2

So buried in there is a bit of "pilot stuff" that relies on the spits inability to slow down as well as the hog. Jimmy77 is an up and comer in my mind. He's aggressive and wants to fight but is constantly showing better and better judgement. He just got a tad to impatient and I saw it and set a little trap for him. That evasive is really an overshoot defense buried in a -E defense and is simply a question of recognizing he was getting less patient. Pull that move prematurely and you look like a total moron as he goes to the vertical again....you can only set the bait if the fish is ready to bite.

[Big Rat]

Humble is right, the closer you let them get the better chance they will get a shot.  I think I'm a little more gutsy and let them get a little closer then 1.2 (makes the bait more tempting).  The problem on this defensive tactic is you burn a lot of E to do it, and it's simply enough countered by a high yo yo from the faster plane.  So you have to make the bait look very tempting.  I think all the hog veterans have some sort of move into a barrel roll defence/reversal favorite.  I'm all about trying to maneuver under someone's nose (no LOS), so I normally start with a split S, then pull it into a barrel roll defence/reversal.  Even this doesn't work all that great when they get too close, as it did last night.  I had a spit 2k directly over my head, that I didn't notice until that point, while I was climbing and texting .  So I was in a very bad spot, given very low airspeed and a high con on my head.  He spun down on me and I ruddered the plane over and WEPed it for the deck.  At 1.5k out I start a hard break turn to the right, staying barely outside of complete blackout, I pull about 180 expecting the spit climbed back up.  WRONG 400 out on 6 .  Flipped over and pulled into split S, just as I started to pull I heard a crack, planes still pulling good, so ignore.  Start pulling into my barrel roll, catch spit out of my top view (took bait), start dumping flaps for overshoot.  Hear boom, spitty augered trying to slow down with hog.  He did shoot off my left aileron, as I said a bit too close.  I have a pretty good film from the TA with a student, that shows this move.  PM me with your e-mail if you'd like a copy or set up some TA time, I like teaching defence.

 
BigRat