Dueling vs MA fighting

[Steve]

i dont think anyone would prefer to be co-anything. ur not "giving" them ur six they should generally already have it. Not dead 6 but somewhere in that sector. You can evade while also luring your attacking into ur gunsights with the same risk as u would already have anyways if you were just to avoid the attack with no offensive intentions.

You don't always get what you prefer in the MA.

if someone is higher than u u really have no choice but to make them overshoot.

 

[awrabbit]

Thor,
I would have to agree with you and Steve both . You and I used to wing a lot in the old days and we worked often "as a team"  following a particular style of  fighting just makes  you predictable IMHO. and as a  dedicated pony driver I will always do my best to fight on my terms.

 Personally I have never been a very big fan of dueling.  But, I can see where it could be useful. Then again I can also see dueling as just another way to make yourself think that you are the most greatest pile-it in the cartoon world.
 The MA is a more dynamic situation and if you are any good then everyone around you will know it and you do not need to duel to prove it .
 Everyone is a little bit better when a known good stick is up.  If they do not want to be just another scalp.

 Most tend to step up their game just a little.  although perhaps they arent the greatest they have the stones to stick around and get some real virtual combat experiance. Very cool choice.  Or..........................

Some will even log off just to avoid beeing killed.  I have seen an area get pretty thin when a group of good sticks are on the hunt in a particular area.
Lame no lessons to learn.
 
But if the guys that log off or move to another  base or area would stick around they would learn. sure they will die  over and over like baby seals. But, if you take your clubbing and make  your best effort then you will be rewarded with SA and eventually you will be giving the clubbings right back to the uber sticks. 
1000 deaths make you a better virtual pilot.  And the really good pilots didnt get that way overnight nor did they avoid very many fights.

Thor remember when Bull, Fogy and Colombo used to smite us over and over ?  Ahhh those were the days. Was very rewarding to  kill them back a few times. <g>

when i first got here i was amazed how piss poor the teamwork in a fight could be, the general Macho Lone Wolf Attitude that is so pervasive here explains it.  i got so frustrated with the crappy drags of guys begging for help i swear i wanted to shoot many of them myself.  there is so much more to being good at this stuff than what you can learn from dueling that such personal combat kills are probably no higher than 5th in what makes one a good player IMO.

it is funny though it is like a mood thing as if someone starts making efforts to work a fur-ball together it gets contagious and all of a sudden the "good guys" just start to clean up ...

funny though how so many proponents of personal combat skill over all else rationalize their arguments, like steve says i would much prefer to fly and work with a bunch of mediocre to competent pilots who communicate well and want to work together, than a gaggle of self absorbed wunder~piwets all trying to carve themselves a duel out of a fur-ball at the expense of the rest of his team.  

really good virtual pilots are so easy to fight with that they make everyone else on their team around them better without hardly saying a word.    

[Masherbrum]

Stiglr, I at no time in this thread said "I was an elite stick".   I'm wondering why every post has a "different angle being played than the last one"?   

[TW9]

 

lol i was saying if they are higher and diving in on u what choice do u have? just sit there? turn into them and hope they arent the face shooting type and break off? I just dont see the point in evading without being offensive if the risks are the same.

[uptown]

In the DA the reason you getting shot down with fantastic defection shots is because they are flying in F-3 mode and aiming the plane at you at you from the outside.

Nah i don't but that. Although F3 should be taken out of the DA imo, (but that's a different thread), the reason i'm losing is i'm losing E too fast. And from the films and talking to the ones i duel, the main reason is my improper use of the flaps most of the time. That and gunnery.
I will say this though. I went into the DA with a MA guy the other nite and beat him easily both fights. Taking the time to review films is as big a help as the seat time.

[WMLute]

Nah i don't but that. Although F3 should be taken out of the DA imo, (but that's a different thread), the reason i'm losing is i'm losing E too fast. And from the films and talking to the ones i duel, the main reason is my improper use of the flaps most of the time. That and gunnery.

It was previously mentioned that you should learn adapt to your opponents flying style in a duel.  (or maybe they just said to be flexible... i forget)

Some players go all out on the merge and blow all their E for that quick shot. 

Some do a more gentle merges holding all their energy.

Some you never know and can do either.

The first two I can adapt easily to after a duel or 3.

The third is the player that "concerns" me when I am fight 'em.

[BaldEagl]

I haven't read every post here but I've been playing AW and AH since 1996.  I thought I could do ok in the MA's and in a one-on-one.  I've never had any training.  I've learned everything I know by flying, fighting and either winning or dieing.  During the dueling tournaments I've been beat quickly in the first round each time so I posted in the Help and Training forum for some dueling help.

I spent a couple of hours last night in the TA and DA with the Widowmakers and learned more in that time than I could have (or ever have) in months (years) of MA trial and error.  In particular, I learned how I most often get beat by the better sticks in the game, both in the MA and the DA.  I've seen the same scenario ("move") play out against me for years and could never quite figure out how to combat it.  Admittedly I don't film or watch or study films.  The game takes up enough time.  But after a couple of hours with some good sticks in the DA I'm beginning to think I have a chance against the "move" that always got me.

So as "artificial" as dueling is it's a valuable tool and I'm sure what I learned will go a long way toward helping me in the MA.  What I've seen happening to me in both places is the same.  After years it only took a couple of hours in the DA to figure at least part of it out.

[Stiglr]

BaldEagl writes:

So as "artificial" as dueling is it's a valuable tool and I'm sure what I learned will go a long way toward helping me in the MA.

I can agree with that wholeheartedly. I suppose what I object to is the idea that a better duelist automatically means a "better virtual pilot". I'd argue that the pilot who has better SA, and can excel in "whatever situation is thrown his way" will beat a pilot who's only used to a set-piece co-alt, co-E scenario.

[Badboy]

After years it only took a couple of hours in the DA to figure at least part of it out.

Yep, the DA is great learning accelerator, as I said here:

Dueling is simply the most efficient way to gain experience of a wide variety of combat situations in the shortest possible time... and is of direct benefit and strongly related to what happens in the MA.

Quoted from this post:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,281422.msg3556285.html#msg3556285



Badboy

[Twizzty]

I can agree with that wholeheartedly. I suppose what I object to is the idea that a better duelist automatically means a "better virtual pilot". I'd argue that the pilot who has better SA, and can excel in "whatever situation is thrown his way" will beat a pilot who's only used to a set-piece co-alt, co-E scenario.

What if "whatever situation" is a co-alt, co-E fight in the same plane, were the only SA decision is to run or fight?

Because of valuable time spent in the DA, I have the confidence to fight. It's obvious what you would do(if you played)...no reponce needed, thx.

[Ardy123]

We've already gone over this, if you've been paying attention.

Duel merges at co-alt, co-energy are highly rare, considering all the other possible variables that are in play during ANY engagement. It's quite the exception.

suit yourself, and the community will thank you for your easy kills and lack of ACM execution skills due to the attitude. & unwillingness to learn 

yes, DA is very staged, but knowing what to do when is what you will get out of the da, which applies to everywhere.

[dedalos]

We've already gone over this, if you've been paying attention.

Duel merges at co-alt, co-energy are highly rare, considering all the other possible variables that are in play during ANY engagement. It's quite the exception.

Just because they are co-alt does not mean they are co-energy.  Does it?
Who said you have to be co-alt?  Just set an alt cap.
Who said you need to be in same planes?

[Shuffler]

Dueling can be anything. Who said they are all co-alt/ co-E?

Dueling is used to improve by many. You can setup any scenario and repeat it till your comfortable with dealing with it.

[Stiglr]

Well, if it's not that, it's not a duel. Semantics, yes, but there it is all the same.

It is true you can use a dueling arena as a teaching tool to set up any number of set-piece situations, or just to practice maneuver execution... but it's not actually dueling.

[Zazen13]

 Duelling is merely a way to articulate, practice and reinforce ACM technique. Naturally, that is usefull in the MA, especially if you are not already familiar with it, are out of practice, or are deficient in  particular area and need some objective reinforcement. However, the MA environment requires a wide and varied set of skills beyond that used in duelling to be successful, especially on the mental side of air combat. No amount of duelling will hone your SA and ability to instantly process multiple threats, your decision making process itself in complex engagements or cooperative tactics. All of these skill-sets are required to be successful, only the MA requires all of them to a highly developed degree for true un-mitigated success...

Even my squad, known for their skill, has several people who are fabulous duelists, but who are quite poor performers in the MA. While being good at duelling is certainly an advantage in any forum of air combat, it's not the most important factor for success in the MA. Great flying ability alone is largely defensive in nature, only when combined with great gunnery and good tactics does it become a true offensive weapon. I know a lot of people who are great flyers, but bad shots and/or poor tacticians, they make for slippery targets, but very rarely are they a real threat to dominate an engagement.

The point being, there's a wide and varied skillset required to be successful in the MA, to focus on one in isolation is to take it out of its natural context and pervert it, which is kind of what duelling does in a way. Set duels are to air combat what drawing a circle is to a work of art. The circle may be a subset component of the work of art, but it is not the work of art itself. To examine one small component of a thing in isolation then attempt to extrapolate it to then encompass the whole is to kill a creature and dissect it in order to examine how it lived its life instead of just observing it live. In my opinion, the MA experience is really the closest analog we have to what true air combat was in its totality of required skills and expertise, duelling represents only an analog of a small subset or facet of that totality.