Thinking of my next PC upgrade being not so PC.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Again this is a statement that is simply ignorant of the facts. The driving force behind viruses is the desire to broach a system and the potential effect. Given the historically low market penetration and Apples careful positioning in never provoking any attacks the simple reality is that security flaws are not being aggressively uncovered or exploited. That does not mean that they do not exist. If/when MAC reaches enough critical mass (specific to installed user base) then this will change. I've got no issues with MAC at all and as you've noted the philosophy has inherent advantages. An assumed immunity to potential viruses is not correct however and in fact is a reflection of Apples relatively pitiful market share. As that changes so will it's security concerns...

It's called security through obscurity. And to my knowledge Mac lacks windows-like rpc, activex etc. vulnerabilities that enable remote execute of code without user consent.

That makes it about 1000 times more safe than windows to start with. Then when we take into account that there are literally a handful of known viruses available for mac it's quite unlikely to run into one. If you had to run in a room with 5 spikes laying on the floor or 280 000 known spikes spread around which would you choose to do?

Sure there's a chance you might step on one of the 5. But with 280 000 you really need to wear thick sweaty boots.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Ever bother to read skuzzy's (or anyone elses comments) on safeguarding your computer. Any PC can be configured (very easily) to be just as "safe" as a MAC. The issue here is the motivation for the generator of the virus, not the MAC OS. It is very possible to write a web enabled virus for the mac OS and Safari browser...in fact its been done repeatedly.

Lol not so. Skuzzy's approach means free willing denial of service and it still won't be bulletproof. There are new zero day exploits brought daily to windows and different browsers that run on it. Add in a botched user privilege system that requires admin elevation on almost everything and you have a weak system on your hands.

Now I have at no point said Macs can't be infected please note that. But you can't deny that there are only a handful of viruses at large against hundreds of thousands. What are the chances of getting one, seriously? Especially when getting it means installing an unknown app that requests admin privileges.

Safari is weak like IE, granted. That's why I browse with Firefox and noscript enabled.

[RTHolmes]

^ agree.

I use a titanium powerbook (8yrs old now!) as my main machine every day, and have never run any AV software on it (although I may do in future depending on how OSX malware develops.) I keep all my sensitive personal and business data on it, which I would never consider doing on my PC (I dont trust my PC even for checking my online banking) despite the fact it has on-access scanning running all the time and weekly scheduled deep scanning.

The network of PCs I administer otoh has almost every conceivable method of denying malware - on-access scanning, scheduled multiple deep scanning, domain networking, limited accounts (btw the windows user rights system is a joke if you come from any *nix background), individual firewalls, network firewall, numerous system tweaks etc etc and rigorous user training. Still there is about a 1 in 50 chance of an individual machine getting infected with something per week.

The only way you will get a PC to be as secure overall as a mac is by junking any MS os on it and installing then correctly configuring some *nix flavour on it.


As for buying the Mac Pro - if you can afford it, why not

[humble]

I have no issue with the fact that there has been no significant virus impact specific to Mac's and no reason to suspect that anything will change in the near future. However any competent white hat will tell you point blank that both the MAC OS and Safari have established exploitable vulnerabilities. I also have no issue with someone preferring a MAC for any reason. For anyone who doesn't use a PC for gaming linux mint is a better OS then anything windows (or apple IMO for that matter) if you are comfortable with the software offerings available. My point is simply that snow leopard is in fact significantly more vulnerable then the various windows offerings. This is a statement of fact that would not be debated by a single white hat worth his bill rate. The critical issue is the lack of motivation not the absence of an exploitable weakness....there are in fact hundreds of documented viruses specific to snow leopard.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

I have no issue with the fact that there has been no significant virus impact specific to Mac's and no reason to suspect that anything will change in the near future. However any competent white hat will tell you point blank that both the MAC OS and Safari have established exploitable vulnerabilities. I also have no issue with someone preferring a MAC for any reason. For anyone who doesn't use a PC for gaming linux mint is a better OS then anything windows (or apple IMO for that matter) if you are comfortable with the software offerings available. My point is simply that snow leopard is in fact significantly more vulnerable then the various windows offerings. This is a statement of fact that would not be debated by a single white hat worth his bill rate. The critical issue is the lack of motivation not the absence of an exploitable weakness....there are in fact hundreds of documented viruses specific to snow leopard.

If you have any links to these viruses info and forms they spread on I'd be interested to read them. I know that Mac was hacked through safari exploit on whitehat conference every year, but only through safari afaik.

Since I use Mac daily I'd really like to see any links you have to give me heads up at least.

[gyrene81]

Hope you like to read Ripley...most of the issues result from the proliferation of 1d10t errors occurring between the keyboard and the seat of Mac users.

http://www.macforensicslab.com/ProductsAndServices/index.php?main_page=document_general_info&products_id=174

http://macscan.securemac.com/osxjahlav-c-dnschanger-trojan-horse/

http://www.macnn.com/articles/09/04/17/mac.based.botnet.active/

http://www.informationweek.com/news/hardware/mac/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=216401181

http://mac.blorge.com/2009/01/26/intego-discovers-iservices-trojan-in-photoshop-serializer/
5,000 infected downloads by January 26, 09?  


The thing is, even though it takes user interaction to spread the problems on Mac OSX...if you don't have anything on the system telling you that you're effing up...you won't know until it's too late. Where I work, there are a lot of 1d10t Mac users just doing their thing without a clue and our network isn't setup to scan for Mac vulnerabilities.

[humble]

If you have any links to these viruses info and forms they spread on I'd be interested to read them. I know that Mac was hacked through safari exploit on whitehat conference every year, but only through safari afaik.

Since I use Mac daily I'd really like to see any links you have to give me heads up at least.

The simple truth is that very little "cutting edge" stuff is even in the public domain since it's invariably covered by NDA's. The friends I have involved in this type of stuff are literally skirting on the edge of an NDA violation even making casual non specific comments. So while there is a tremendous push to expose and close security issues specific to windows based OS options there is an equally compelling "don't ask, don't tell" policy at work specific to MAC. Basically until such time as one or more weaknesses are exploited significantly enough to be noticed the less said the better. However it is very safe to say that little if any truly critical data/trade secrets etc is stored on a MAC OS by anyone who knows better.

[RTHolmes]

It would be ridiculous to suggest that any desktop OS is invulnerable, but to suggest that OSX is far less secure than any MS OS is just laughable.

[Wingnutt]

I think, currently, A totallu unsecure mac is less likely to get a virus than a PC with Norton Antivirus..  just due to the sheer number of PC viruses and how quickly they come out. 

Of course if you have Norton, you have already lost, as it is slowing your PC down and causing as many problems as most viruses  

[RTHolmes]

I think, currently, A totallu unsecure mac is less likely to get a virus than a PC with Norton Antivirus..  just due to the sheer number of PC viruses and how quickly they come out.

agreed, and for other more subtle reasons too eg. interface design/dialog fatigue.

[humble]

The MAC OS is significantly less secure in the sense that it isn't under constant scrutiny for security weaknesses. At this point it is significantly more vulnerable then windows but there is no motivation outside of corporate espionage to "hack a MAC"...

[Vulcan]

I would take a serious look at the new 27" iMac.

I wouldn't, it has significant hardware flaws at the moment. Don't touch em with a barge pole.

[Vulcan]

Not so, there aren't even 0.05% of the amount of known windows viruses in the wild. So chances of getting one are pretty remote and afaik still require you to manually install it before you get it on the computer. This means you can get it if you download and install something illegal or freeware from untrustworthy source basically.

Oh, and win a lottery in bad luck.

They work the same way PC malware works. And that spreads easily enough.

There is now both mac and iphone botnets in operation ( http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04/16/new_ibotnet_analysis/  and http://isc.sans.org/diary.html?storyid=7786 ) .

With a PC, you have a paranoid user usually using AV and AS software. So there is a safety net for their stupidity.

With a Mac you have a complacent user usually using no AV protection. No safety net for their stupidity.

So yes, while there are significantly more virus's and malware for the PC, the PC is usually more protected versus the zero protection you see on the mac. The signatures Apple included in OS X Snow Leopard are fixed, not dynamic, heuristic, or updateable - so good for all of 5 minutes protection.

I've shared an office with apple people for 6 years now. Mac's have their issues just like PC's. It all boils down too two things, which way of doing things you prefer (and I must say Win7 is an awesome improvement), and with mac you do it steve's way.

[Vulcan]

If you have any links to these viruses info and forms they spread on I'd be interested to read them. I know that Mac was hacked through safari exploit on whitehat conference every year, but only through safari afaik.

Since I use Mac daily I'd really like to see any links you have to give me heads up at least.

On average each year OS X has more flaws to patch than windows, OS X is usually the #1 OS in flaw counts year on year. Google it, it's kicking around somewhere. Each increment of OS X has replaced the Open BSD libraries with Apples own libraries, and this has lead to more and more flaws. IIRC there was some interesting wifi ones last year as well.

[TequilaChaser]

Well, now my desktop is finally starting to show its age a bit, Its a Athlon 64X2 6400 with 8gb of ram and a geforce 8800GTO.   I can no longer run Aces high absolutly maxed out with all settings to full.. which as in the past has always been my "time to upgrade" indicator.

thoughts? comments? insults?

thoughts?

I still am holding to my opinion, that something is a miss in your current PC ........ as I posted earlier in this thread......