190 A/F engine dammage Test

[MANDOBLE]

Great mrfish! I want the radiator damaged! oil leaks! smoke! whatever but no engine stopped with no other effecf.

[Naudet]

Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
[QB]
Ok, 190s were "historically" paper/crystal planes, but 190s HAVE MORE PARTS TO LOOSE!
[QB]

what u mean with paper/crsytal planes?ß tha 190 couldnt substain battle dmg very well??

If yes Mandoble, check ur sources, the ME 109er was a tiny little bird that fell aprat after a couple of hits, but the FW190 was in every version a durable plane. It was known among LW for its good ability to take battle dmg and still fly on.

[MANDOBLE]

LOL Naudet, it was a joke, I know very well 190s were sturdy planes, cause that I doublequoted "historically". In AH we have paper/crystal ones and I only ask for more diversification in the damage.

[Toad]

Found it. I checked the program against a published 1000 yard zero for M2 surplus ball ammo and it's pretty close. (http://www.gunnery.net/warwagon/50bmg.htm)

Calculator: http://internet.cybermesa.com/~jbm/ballistics/traj/traj.html

Again, using Hooligan's numbers for the WORST .50 BMG bullet and the BEST MG131 bullet.

This is at 15000 feet altitude, gunsite 3 feet above gun (a guess)on say a -51. Used 6" above gun for the MG 131.

.50 BMG

Trajectory (Basic) Output

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Input Data
Muzzle Velocity: 2845.0 ft/sec
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.650  
Drag Function: G1  
Bullet Weight: 712 grains
Sight Height: 36.00 inches
Wind Cross Speed: 10 mph
LOS Angle: 0 degrees
Target Speed: 0 mph
Zero Range: 350 yards
Temperature: 5.5 °F
Barometric Pressure: 16.89 in Hg
Relative Humidity: 0.0 %
Altitude: 15000 feet
Air Density: 63 % of Sea Level


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Calculated Table
Elevation: 17.594 moa
Azimuth: 0.000 moa

Range/   Velocity/   Energy/   Drop  
(yards) (ft/sec)  (ft-lbs)  (inches)
 
  0   2845.0   12795.7   -36.0
100   2754.8   11996.9   -19.8
200   2666.5   11240.1   -8.2
300   2580.0   10523.2   -1.4
400   2495.4    9844.3    0.1
500   2412.6    9201.6   -4.0
600   2331.5    8593.6   -14.0
700   2252.2    8018.8   -30.5
800   2174.6    7475.6   -53.8
900   2098.5    6962.1   -84.4
1000  2023.7    6474.0  -123.0
1100  1950.2    6012.8  -170.0
1200  1878.4    5577.9  -226.2
1300  1808.2    5169.1  -292.2
1400  1739.9    4785.5  -368.9
1500  1673.3    4426.6  -457.1
1600  1608.7    4091.3  -557.7
1700  1546.0    3778.7  -671.7
1800  1485.3    3487.7  -800.3
1900  1427.1    3219.5  -944.7
2000  1371.2    2972.3  -1106.2


13MM Mg131

Trajectory (Basic) Output

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Trajectory (Basic) Output

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Input Data
Muzzle Velocity: 2640.0 ft/sec
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.650  
Drag Function: G1  
Bullet Weight: 534 grains
Sight Height: 6.00 inches
Wind Cross Speed: 10 mph
LOS Angle: 0 degrees
Target Speed: 0 mph
Zero Range: 350 yards
Temperature: 5.5 °F
Barometric Pressure: 16.89 in Hg
Relative Humidity: 0.0 %
Altitude: 15000 feet
Air Density: 63 % of Sea Level


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Calculated Table
Elevation: 10.680 moa
Azimuth: 0.000 moa

Range/  Velocity/  Energy/ Drop
 
(yards) (ft/sec)  (ft-lbs)  (inches)

 
  0   2640.0   8263.6  -6.0
100   2554.1   7734.7   2.6
200   2470.0   7233.9   5.9  
300   2387.8   6759.9   3.5
400   2307.2   6311.6   -5.1  
500   2228.4   5887.7   -20.1  
600   2151.3   5487.3   -42.2
700   2075.6   5108.1   -71.7
800   2001.2   4748.2  -109.4  
900   1928.2   4408.2  -155.7  
1000  1856.9   4088.1  -211.3
1100  1787.2   3787.2  -277.1
1200  1719.4   3505.3  -353.7  
1300  1653.5   3241.5  -442.2
1400  1589.4   2995.3  -543.3
1500  1527.3   2765.8  -658.2
1600  1467.3   2552.8  -788.1
1700  1409.8   2356.4  -934.1  
1800  1354.7   2175.9 -1097.6
1900  1302.4   2011.2 -1280.2  
2000  1253.2   1862.2 -1483.2
***************


With both guns zeroed at 350 yards compare:

Range/Velocity/Energy/Drop

.50 BMG:  700   2252.2    8018.8   -30.5

13MM:    700   2075.6   5108.1   -71.7

This is why it's harder to hit with the 13mm at the longer ranges; over twice the drop and about 60% of the energy when you do hit.

[ 06-24-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]

[Hajo]

gentlemen:

As far as suffering battle damage, the 190 was on par with the P-47.  Alfred  Prices' book Focke Wulf, Fw190 in combat is the definitve source for info on the FW190.  Mr Price interviewed pilots, that fought as well as flew the 190, and Kurt Tank also.

First off, there were no hydraulics involved with the 190, everything was electrical, the first all electric fighter I believe.  There were no hydraulic pumps, or hydraulic lines to sever.  It was a very stable gun platform, possibly the best during the war, but that is up for discussion.  Also it did not use cable or wire for the rudders, elevators etc.  It used steel rods, thus no snapping of cables or pulleys when aircraft was shot by the enemy.  The early a models 0 thru 8 had a BMW radial, no water cooling, there was a fan inside the cowling behind the prop hub to facilitate engine cooling.

In Mr. Prices book are copies of the tests performed on an a-3 that was captured when a pilot mistakenly landed in enemy territory.
Also literature sent to the air Ministry pleading for a fighter to combat the then a-3 model.  The RAF Pilots were very concerened, as they should have been because the A-3 out climbed, was faster in level speed, and outgunned the then SpitV.  and, the 14 cylinder radial provided protection for the pilot, and suffered battle damage on par with the P-47.

Get the book, it's a very good read, and a nice addition to any Library.

Oh...forgot, I believe a combat trim "auto" system might have been used also....similar to the Nik2-Js.

[ 06-24-2001: Message edited by: Hajo ]

[ 06-25-2001: Message edited by: Hajo ]

[ 06-25-2001: Message edited by: Hajo ]

[ 06-25-2001: Message edited by: Hajo ]

[Naudet]

Yes the book is a good read.

But the FW definitivly not used auto operated combat flaps, the unique feature of the FW 190 was the "Kommandogeraet" which controlled propeller pitch, fuel mixture etc. so that the pilot only had to push or pull the throttle and the rest was down by the "Kommandogeraet".

Also the FW190D9 want so prone to radiator dmg as the P51.

The radiator of the D9 sat infront of the eng, surrounded by and amored cooling ring. So it was very hard to score hits on it from 7-5 oclock, which was the most often used firing position.

Now on the P51 the radiator sat on the stangd belly, much further aft than on the FW190 and so more vulnerable to dmg from behind especially from low 5-7 oclock.

But in AH the D9 suffers from dead radiator even when fired upon from behind, while the P51 rarely does.

[ 06-25-2001: Message edited by: Naudet ]

[Wilbus]

Have that book too, love it, read it over and over again.
Explains about everything you wanna know about the 190.

[Naudet]

2 other books i find very good are "JG26 - Top Guns of the Lufwaffe" And "Green Hearts - 1st in Combat with the Dora 9".

The latter is a pure describtion of the time from JG54 in which it was equitment wiht the D9. It is writen day bye day sortie bye sortie.

Btw Wilbus, havent seen u for longtime in MA did u change ur name tag??

[niklas]

If you look at the energy of a .50 bullet to determine the hit power, you always assume that the bullet stops in the aircraft, and all energy is transferred into damage.
If you consider that the bullets passes through the airframe and exits on the other side, the damage to the aircraft is much less - and this is what often happened with AP ammunition.
mg 131 HE ammo will enter the aircraft and explode, doing maximum damage - always!

niklas

[Toad]

Yes, most likely the .50 cal will go clean through the engine block or any other non-armored part of the aircraft it hits.

Depending on range, it may well go through most of the armored parts as well.


<EDIT>  Anyone know the composition and weight of the explosive mixture used in the Brandsprenggranatpatronen?

[ 06-25-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]

[flakbait]

Just for those who prefer looking at a trajectory as an image....

 

 

-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb
 

[Wilbus]

Hey Naudet  

Read JG26 book, very very good and great source of information, not much about jsut the 190 though.

I canceld my Wilbuz account, left and then decided I couldn't live without AH, a brake was what I needed so I am back. My new callsign is "Acinonyx" but I am trying to get my old Wilbuz callsign back  

Cya up there!  

[MANDOBLE]

Niklas, your asumption is obvious, cant understand how someone may still have doubts about the advantage of 13mm HE round over 50' AP, unless the AP hits and pass through an "armoured/hard" part of the plane (engine, pilot seat). HE rounds should be deadlier when hitting "soft" parts like control surfaces, fuel tanks, radiators, etc.

[Vermillion]

Guys, just because some of the 13mm had a HE content, don't confuse it with the explosive power of a 20mm HE round.

I will have to check my sources when I get home, but the HE content of a 13mm round is very, very small.

[Wilbus]

Yup but makes more dammage to soft parts (most of the plane) then a none HE 50 cal.