Pe - 8 Russian Heavy

[Vadjan-Sama]

I would like more to see an IL-4 or an Pe-2, Tu-2 first but

+1

[Motherland]

the Pe-8 was used in a politically psychological significant manner

from 30 to 130 sorties a month or more

pulled off the front lines due to what they considered heavy losses,

continue production of about 8 per month throughout the war.

Aren't you trying to argue that the Pe-8 WAS historically Significant?
All this post says is that the Pe-8 was such a POS that it was only ever used for morale, to limited success, as it was such a terrible aircraft that it couldn't fly without sustaining significant casualties, only flew 30-130 sorties per month, and only 8 were built per month.
Then you say in another thread that it has more historical significance than the Yak-3, and aircraft that actually fit into the Soviet war strategy and was used to great success in the closing stages of the war.
Seriously, for what possible reason could you place the Pe-8 on a list of significance higher than the DB-3/Il-4, Pe-2, Tu-2.... and then also the Yak-3!

[gyrene81]

Kinda looking for straws there ain't ya motherland? If you read up on it some, without taking things out of context and doing the "ah ha!!!" crap...you would see where the assessment of POS is wrong...was it an "uber 1337" bomber like any of the U.S. bombers...no, but considering that it remained in production and in combat service for nearly 4 years unlike many other planes, how bad could it possibly have been?

You really need to stop taking stuff out of context to bolster your own arguments...as for the IL4, it was used on several of the same bombing missions on Berlin as the Pe-8. High losses on a plane that could only be produced in small numbers due to a shortage of materials is not the same as high losses would be on something like the P-51D...or did you miss that part of the equation?

[Motherland]

Less like taking it out of context, more like cutting out the fluff... nothing I cut out changes the meaning in context to your post or the reality of the Pe-8's service.
93 aircraft were built. It didn't accomplish anything other than dumping a few thousand pounds of bomb per mission in the general vicinity of Berlin. The only thing it could do was be used as a morale booster, but it couldn't even do that and was taken off the front.

was it an "uber 1337" bomber like any of the U.S. bombers...no,

No, and that really doesn't matter. What does matter is that it wasn't 'uber 1337' compared to other Soviet bombers of the period, to the point where it wasn't even relied on for what for the VVS actual combat use.
Which is exemplified here;

as for the IL4, it was used on several of the same bombing missions on Berlin as the Pe-8.

It was an aircraft so terrible at what it was even designed to do, that it had to be complimented by a twin engined bomber that was a modification of a design that had been produced since 5 years before the war started. Which, as you should know, was an eternity in this period...

considering that it remained in production and in combat service for nearly 4 years unlike many other planes, how bad could it possibly have been?

93 aircraft over 4 years
For comparison, in a similar time period, over 33,000 Yaks were built.
Heck, more than 150 Ta 152s were built and it was in service for 4 months


The funniest thing is that as soon as someone points out what a useless and irrelevant aircraft this was, you jump on them for loving the B29 or some nonsense... I haven't flown an American aircraft in this game in the main arena in over 2 years.

So... that begs the question... what would it be used for?
Would it be used in the MA? Likely not... less bomb load than a Lancaster and even slower. Its only redeeming factor are the 20mm cannons in the tail and dorsal turrets. No where near good enough to get people out of the B24 or Lancaster. It would be a sitting duck.
Would it be used in Events? There's nothing that it could be used for.... it couldn't be used for supporting ground forces and the Soviets never had a strategic campaign of any worth.

[LLogann]

Any Plinko stuff would be a good thing I believe....  Been thinking about it all day after this AM's Yak3 convo....

The Russian's had a whole bunch of reasonable aircraft that should have a home here!

+1

[gyrene81]

Ok now that I'm home and I got a few minutes before I have to go bowling...incidentally, are you flying the FSO tonight Motherland?

I think you're looking through the window with the blinds half closed...you need to open the blinds and see the entire picture.

It's all about perspective:

Was the Dolittle raid insignificant? - in the grand scheme of the war, yes but it sure surprised the Japanese. The Pe-8 had the same effect for Stalin.

Since you brought it up, were the early bombing missions of the B-29 significant compared to the Dolittle raid? - in forcing the Japanese to surrender and crippling their war efforts...not until early 1945. The Dolittle raid caused more of a psychological effect in one shot than several hundred B-29 missions.

How significant were 2 or 3 years of Dolittle type bombing missions to the German high command? - even though nothing of signficance was hit (which was the same effect as the B-29 missions until they started flying at lower alts)...all of the bombing runs by the Pe-8s did exactly what Stalin wanted them to, let German people know that the propaganda of imminent German victory in Russia was false...and gave Stalin more propaganda to feed his people...if Stalin had pushed strategic bombing to the extent that the U.S. did, imagine several hundred improved Pe-8s (maybe Pe-9s dropping tonnage on Berlin before the U.S.


If Stalin hadn't been as short sighted on the idea of "long range strategic bombing" as Hitler was, that Pe-8 would have been much improved over its life and it would not have been the only long range bomber Russia produced. But Stalin had to gain air superiority and supply his armies...so the majority of resources went into more easily produced assets. In the grand scheme of things sure, the Pe-8 did little against the Germans, but it had a purpose...and it served its purpose to the extent that the Russian regime at the time wanted. Even the use of a bi-plane on night raids to drop small bombs and hand grenades on forward German airfields had an effect...and the Russians did it a lot. You think the Pe-8 losses were high...think about the B-17 losses before someone decided long range escorts were needed, when the Luftwaffe still had air superiority. Even the B-29 suffered what was considered heavy losses by U.S. military command until they made some strategic operational changes. The Pe-8 could operate at 30k which rivals the B-17 and is higher than the B-24 or any of the bombers the Germans had...and it's not that slow for a bomber that was never improved upon.






And yes I agree, the DB-3 or Il-4 would be better suited adds for AH...but in general as far anything that the Russians produced and actually put into combat...there isn't much that is really insignificant.

[Motherland]

Ok now that I'm home and I got a few minutes before I have to go bowling...incidentally, are you flying the FSO tonight Motherland?

Yes I am In fact, as I have to get the ol' butcher bird started up soon this'll be a quick post.

If Stalin hadn't been as short sighted on the idea of "long range strategic bombing" as Hitler was, that Pe-8 would have been much improved over its life and it would not have been the only long range bomber Russia produced. But Stalin had to gain air superiority and supply his armies...so the majority of resources went into more easily produced assets.

I'll say the same thing I do when someone brings up 'if the war would have went on a few months longer then...' or 'if Hitler wouldn't have interfered with the Me 262 program then...' They didn't, so it's irrelevant.

let German people know that the propaganda of imminent German victory in Russia was false...

I would have to doubt it... even Operation Gemorrah didn't do much to break the German people. It actually strengthened their resolve in a way... Kind of like Pearl Harbor or 9/11.

[Plawranc]

woops I just realized that the russians don't have 2 aircraft thats the italians but staill the rusian's only have 1 bomber and those bomber nuts would be exstatic about the new bomber

Hey guys Im gonna start a new crew, we have "Blame Karaya" why not "Blame Warphoenix" for all spelling errors and grammatical failures in AH2.

SPELLCHECK IS YOUR FRIEND!!!!!!!!!!!

[csThor]

Accusing Stalin of short-sightedness in regards to strategic bombing sorties is wide off the mark. In 1941 the VVS undoubtedly had the numerically strongest strategical bomber force in the world, but then they had this little misshap called "Operation Barbarossa" and a rather negligable struggle for mere survival at their hands. 

Actually after the slaughter of the frontline bomber forces in the last days of June 1941 soviet High Command fed ADD forces (= long-range bomber forces) into the maelstrom as it had nothing else left to hit the Wehrmacht with. In that summer soviet bombers (either SB or DB-3 types mostly, some odd TB-7/Pe-8 or even the lumbering TB-3) went down in droves and essentially sealed the fate of the ADD for the rest of the war - flying night missions. In this regard the Il-4 was the most significant type used while daylight ops fell to the Pe-2 series and later to the increasing numbers of Tu-2 (only after mid-1944).

[dhart]

I want a russian bomber as well, but I found a better one:

TU-4