AHII Collisions VS Other Games

[bozon]

So explain it.  As you see in my OP, I'm only asking why making contact is such an issue in this game.  I've played many games with a ping well over 200, but be sure, every one knew when a collision has taken place and effects both vehicles.
Blame it on lag and all, if you choose to do so, without explanation. but I've heard the wind blow before.  I've not made this post without research, but I might as well have.

Two planes flying at each other at 300mph each. The time it take to pass through each other is around 50ms. This is less than the ping time of most players and small deviation from the predicted flight path (the game extrapolate till the next network update) can easily produce deviations as large as the size of the plane. Add on top of that that the ping time is an average and fluctuates and you may also loose packets and have to wait for the next one to update the game world. Your machine will show a collision while the other player machine, that is still predicting your position from extrapolation, will not. It may also work the other way around by pure chance.

It is basically down to the discrepancy between the passing-though time scale and the network update time scale. Same internet, but slower moving (or larger) object will have less problems.

[Skuzzy]

WMLute covered it accurately.  Vulcan explained why things have to work the way they do.

[dkff49]

coogn, going back to lute's post.

you seem to be asking that the person from pic #2 (opponents front end) also take damage when he avoided the collision. that hardly seems fair.

in has been explained several times why the two "front ends" are different and now maybe you will have an understanding as to why HTC chooses to have the result different as well.

i for one would be pi$$ed if i fell to earth in a collision that did not happen on my computer or that i never saw.

[sntslilhlpr6601]

It's an issue because you don't try to shoot the other car! Let me explain:

In the racing sims I tried online, they extrapolate the positions of the other cars. So if you take the two pictures above in mind, the first picture is the locations recieved from the other player, but along with the latency (X). Your computer "knows" this is dated data, so it makes an assumption about where the other guy would be at T+x and draws this on your screen. (further ahead)
Same for the other guy. His computer "secretly" sees you much farther back (2nd pic), but again extrapolates your position on his screen and draws you where you will be in x millisecs, (closer)

So simple. Two cars going side by side. If both players sat next to each other and could see what the other guy see it would seem like there were no lag at all!
Now, why doesn't AH use this method you ask (or "why is this an issue?"). The reason is warping. As long as you go straight this method works great, once you start turning, especially at high speed, the extrapolations are suddenly off. To compensate for this your computer have to make the other player "jump" to where it's new guess is or warp.
If instead your computer draws exactly the position it receives, there is no guessing, and the only warping will be if one of the connections are unstable with very variable latency. Having small microwarps might not seem so high a price to pay, but when you try to shoot that other plane, instead of just overtaking him, it would be a real turn off.

Also, when looking at cars, it's a general rule that the faster they go, the slower they turn. Real sharp turns in racing games are often done at slow speeds, where the risk of mis-extrapolating is low. Planes on the other hand, tend to turn better the faster they go (to some extent), increasing the risk of warping.

Well said! The term is 'lag compensation' and as Vulcan point out, it is very common in first person shooters (also, online racing games). The speeds achieved in this game as well as the sheer number of players makes lag compensation not an option. The way HTC has chosen to model collisions is the only way that is fair for both sides.

[lulu]

 

1. i think that  if HT can use a right 'mean time buffer' then no lag problem more.   

2. cause lag i wish do not see 'u collided' and xxx shot u dwn!      

 

[Megalodon]

HT

What are the average connection speeds? or do you know?
I would like to know which is better in game 42 or 320 ping times? Which is closer to the average?

I always assumed having a great connection was the way to go and it is on the net, but that might not be the case in your game? Maybe having a bit slower connect is better? or closer to the game's average?

So what are the players average connect ping times?

[fuzeman]

I seriously doubt HTC would share average ping time info. Connection stability is more important than ping times. Much better to have a stable ping with very little variation opposed to a connection with the larger throughput.

[Megalodon]

I seriously doubt HTC would share average ping time info. Connection stability is more important than ping times. Much better to have a stable ping with very little variation opposed to a connection with the larger throughput.

Why not? Its just an average. Im not asking for X's ping time. I would like to have the average connection speed. What is it? What ping time would make it more fair for me?

My connect is plenty stable. I can adjust my speed with my wallet ... maybe I will save some money!

[Skuzzy]

You can adjust the last mile with your wallet, but you have no control over the speed and bandwidth utilization of the rest of the Internet.  Just like us.  The game servers have access to two OC-48 pipes (that's 4,320Mb/s of aggregate throughput in both directions).  It does not stop the Internet from being a huge problem from time to time.  It also means the 'last mile' (i.e. your immediate connection) is pretty much worthless in the overall scheme of things.

Connection speed is pretty much irrelevant.  As long as the speed is above 28.8Kbps (modem) then it is fine.  Ping times under 300ms are fine.  Latencies and variations are the killers.

[Megalodon]

You can adjust the last mile with your wallet, but you have no control over the speed and bandwidth utilization of the rest of the Internet.  Just like us.  The game servers have access to two OC-48 pipes (that's 4,320Mb/s of aggregate throughput in both directions).  It does not stop the Internet from being a huge problem from time to time.  It also means the 'last mile' (i.e. your immediate connection) is pretty much worthless in the overall scheme of things.

Connection speed is pretty much irrelevant.  As long as the speed is above 28.8Kbps (modem) then it is fine.  Ping times under 300ms are fine.  Latencies and variations are the killers.

 I'm sure the computers used have alot to do with it as well.

Some 1 pointed on Hammers page,  I just want to have the smallest lag tail possible.

Sounds a little complicated to me I would just like to have the average connection ping time that every one else has. What is it?

Btw to slow down my connect I save money that helps my wallet I wont need to speed it up and maybe my latencies and variations will become closer to the normal average ...which are?

[Estes]

As fuzeman and skuzzy have said. Its not really an issue of high ping, but of latency/ packet loss.

While im just speculating here, I would guess the average ping for broadband users would be from 40-60 ive heard of broadband users across the pond usually get somewhere in the ballpark of the 80s. Again its highly possible im wrong im just taking a few guesses.

By the way, skuzzy sure is smart for an old timer. To be honest I dont have a clue as to what half he said haha. Out of curiousity though skuzzy, are those figures spot on or rough estimates? How do you come about them?

Is this something you guys speculate with your traffic with a little math, or is it some sort of insider information from the back bones of the web?

Also, out of curiousity. If I were to walk into one of these back bones of the net, what would it look like? A room full of servers with all kinds of wires etc?

One last thing I was curious about, and I dont mean to hijack so if this is something I should make another thread about let me know. But I remember you talking about how you coined your handle, and as I recall it was in college when you built your own SCSCI (thats probably spelled wrong) drive. Is that correct?

I would never in a million years be able to do something like that so my hat is off to ya. How much time/labor went into that? Thanks in advance.

[Skuzzy]

There is no such thing as an average connection speed.  As I said before.  The connection concerns the entire path from your computer to the server.  You have no control of anything passed your initial connection to your ISP.  From our perspective, your immediate connection is moot.

Yes, it is complicated.  There is no simple answer that would make any sense.  Even my attempts to keep it simple are leaving a lot of information out.  If you think what I am saying is complicated, you really do not want to know the entire story.

You want the least variation in overall connect speed to the server as possible.  Unfortunately, you are not really in control of that.  There is no such thing as average latency or variance.  You can have a 20Mb/s connection but have horrible latencies, which make the game unplayable.  You can have a 20Mb/s connection, but varying so bad in actual speed it is unplayable.

Does that twist your noggin enough?

[Tac]

Think of it this way:

You are on a godly 20mbit /s cable connection. You pay 100 buck a month for it. YOU DA MAN.

When you play AH the path and speeds between your computer and HT's server look like this:

Yourhome: 20mbit/s--->yourISP:20mbit/s-->serverinVirginia: 2mbit/s -->server in Alabama: 800k/s ---> server in Texas: 10mbit /s---> AH server: 4gig/s


So yes, your connection speed is good but between you and HT's server that server in alabama porks your connection down to 800k / s ... so it doesnt matter if the texas server is 10mbit or AH's server is 4gigs /s your ultimate final, fastest connection possible to HTC is 800k /s

You downgrade you connection speed to 5 mbit /s and pay just 40 bucks a month and your connection to HTC will be identical as with the 20 mbit/s connection.

Thing with the connection is the above is never set in stone. at each 'hop' the connection speed can go up or down every microsecond.

Normally in any online game a connection of under 500ms is fine..ideally it'd be under 200ms.

[bozon]

You downgrade you connection speed to 5 mbit /s and pay just 40 bucks a month and your connection to HTC will be identical as with the 20 mbit/s connection.

But you cannot download as much pr0n as before.