Why attack the Tirpitz?

[E25280]

The HMS Campbeltown, the USS Buchanan which they got through the lend-lease act. Yes, was painted in german colors, flying the german flag and naval ensign, and I believe the bridge and superstructure had the outlines changed with sheet metal.

They crashed it into the dry dock, and planted timed charges in the ship. I don't know what the raiders did, but I do know that when the the timed charges went off as the germans were searching the ship.

Here is the first part of a documentary on Youtube.  Just look for the others after this one is done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axHjSxFyfuo

[B3YT]

all the commandos were either killed or captured but put up a bloody good fight

[Simba]

The Combined Ops raid on St. Nazaire was codenamed Operation Chariot. H.M.S. Campbeltown, ex-U.S.S. Buchanan, was disguised as a German torpedoboot and rammed into the lock gate of St. Nazaire in March 1942, denying the use of the largest dry-dock on the west coast of France to the Axis when the explosive charge in her bows blew up the lock gate - and some numbers of German sight-seers - the following day. The result was no more Atlantic or Channel-coast repair facilities for the big German battleships, which were now confined to northern waters. Tirpitz was now a lot less dangerous without a secure Atlantic port in which to refit.

Well done, the Royal Marines and the British Army personnel who fought their way into the dock area installations and blew them into such a tangle that repairs were still incomplete by war's end. And the Royal Navy who got them there, even if it couldn't get them home again: most of the Marines and soldiers were killed or captured when it proved impossible to get away on the designated RN light vessels that were shot to pieces by an alert defence. Five Victoria Crosses were awarded for the action.

For further information, the best single-volume history of Operation Chariot is Storming St. Nazaire by James Dorrian; 1998, Leo Cooper, Pen & Sword Books, London, ISBN 0 85052 419 9. It describes how the attack was compromised by a bombing raid by the R.A.F. that succeeded mainly in alerting the German garrison rather than distracting it - not 'Bomber' Harris' finest hour, for sure.

  

[Angus]

Look no further....look at this, Jeremy Clarkson's father-in-law was a commando. And here is Clarkson at his best:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgF0R4dhUqk

I did post this earlier by the way....

[Angus]

The Bismark BBs were not very good.

Check out this page for an interesting comparison.

  http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm

The North Carolina and Alabama class BBs from the US Navy would have easily bested her. The Iowas would have dominated.

I think the whole Navy other then Uboats where a huge waste of time and resources for the Germans.  Think of all the tanks the steel from those two wasted junk wagons could have built.

Oh, bear in mind that it's the crucial first hit that matters, and a couple of 15 inch shells will do a load of hurt to ANY WW2 warship. The Germans were ahead of the RN in aiming technology early in the war, however the RN was very much more at sea and well drilled.
So, - so many factors....

[E25280]

Look no further....look at this, Jeremy Clarkson's father-in-law was a commando. And here is Clarkson at his best:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgF0R4dhUqk

I did post this earlier by the way....

Psst . . . look three posts above yours.   

[Angus]

oh, me bad 

[Squire]

Tirpitz was a "potential threat" to the Murmansk run (Arctic Convoys) and therefore was a valid target. The USN would not have left an IJN Battlecruiser sitting unmolested in Tokyo Bay or parked in the Aleutian Islands in 1944-45 either. It was there, so they attacked it.

[Nemisis]

It was a "threat" to artic shipping. It wasn't a potetial threat unless they couldn't sortie out of whatever harbor she was in. And repairs don't really qualify something as being a "potential threat". IMO, anything that can sail, is armored and can carry guns would be a threat, if not nessicarily a large one.

[Squire]

Not sure parsing the grammar really adds anything to the topic? Label it what you like.

Btw the definition of potential includes: "Anything that may be possible; a possibility"

Regards.

[R 105]

As for the German surface fleet. Had Hitler put all the time materials man power and money into more U-Boats and not larger mostly worthless bombing targets for the RAF. He and Germany would have been better served. I think Hitler would still have managed or mismanaged the lose of the war. He surrounded himself with morons totally unsuited for high command at the political level. While he ignored advise from professional soldiers. The poor use of the Battleships he did have made for good story lines for later war movies but had no long term gain for the German war effort while 100 more U-Boats in 1941 would have.

[Scotty55OEFVet]

One of my military history professors once said that the Bismarck wasn't destroyed by the British but, in fact, was scuttled by the crew after the wrecked steering gear made fighting back a losing proposition in any event. If this info is true (he claimed he had a source that was "there") she wasn't sunk by any bombs or torpedos.

What you say could be true...and although German crew possibly scuttled her( I have never read an account of this event actually holding water(No Pun Intended, lol)), it was British torps and bombs that wrecked that steering gear.  SO, if you want to get tachnical, without the "Help" from the Brits, the Hun would have never had to scuttle it.  <S>

[CountD90]

I heard the version of bismarck being scuttled, but it was the history channel that I saw it on so yeah 50 50 shot on that one lol.

[Angus]

Ballard explored the wreck, and could not completely conclude whether the sinking was due to damage or the bottom valves.
He did note though, that the damage was so extensive, that it would not have made a difference.
Bear in mind that the firepower of the Bismarck stayed full after the fire control was knocked out. She did not (AFAIK) score a single hit, while the RN simply closed in and hit her like +700 times.
So....no doubt. And the initial "stun" was done with a ship that Bismarck had an equal opportunity to hit more or less, and double opportunity to sink, due to difference in shher armour....

[GtoRA2]

Ballard explored the wreck, and could not completely conclude whether the sinking was due to damage or the bottom valves.
He did note though, that the damage was so extensive, that it would not have made a difference.
Bear in mind that the firepower of the Bismarck stayed full after the fire control was knocked out. She did not (AFAIK) score a single hit, while the RN simply closed in and hit her like +700 times.
So....no doubt. And the initial "stun" was done with a ship that Bismarck had an equal opportunity to hit more or less, and double opportunity to sink, due to difference in shher armour....

It doesn't really matter anyway and is silly german pride/fanbois thing.  I have a book by a survivor officer and he says scuttled, but honestly, the ship would have been sunk by direct fire soon anyway. It was wrecked.

Also go compare it with Brit and American BBs of the same period, it was a mediocre ship at best.