explain this

[Vermillion]

Is bolillo_loco, RAM's brother?

They certainly have the same style, and both seem to blindly follow an agenda.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[juzz]

More like "anti-lazs" I think.  

[SageFIN]

 

Originally posted by juzz:
More like "anti-lazs" I think.  

There must be a balance between the light and the dark. Or in this case, between the dark and the dark  .

------------------
---
SageFIN

"I think IŽll believe in Gosh instead of God.  If you donŽt
 believe in Gosh too, youŽll be darned to heck."
---

[-lazs-]

loco... no one asked for the corsair -1 to do 436... I would like the Hog to handle well tho.   the tests that I have seen are comparison tests so your point about taking the best tests is assinine.  We have the poorest performing Hog but it has better bomb capacity.   I don't care about bombs.

sage.. a painter once told me that there were over 400 shades of black when I asked for a black paint job on my car.   BTW, what does sage mean in finland?   Inane?  drivel?
lazs

[F4UDOA]

Lazs,

Bolillo_Loco has no interest in educating himself about anything. In fact he is just disgruntled about the P-38 performance being so poor. But since he doesn't know what the P-38's performance should be or what is wrong with it he attacks the F4U. I am willing to bet if he flew it for a tour he would have a negative K/D.

BadBoy,

That is another great chart<S>!!
Is that an AH chart or is it based on real life numbers? Did you get your copy of the Test pilots Association on WW2 fighters?

Later
F4UDOA

[Citabria]

 http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/000864.html

um... ive tested the shrecking plane over and over

P-38L loadout:
100% fuel
200rpg 50cal, 150rds 20mm
no external ordnance

top speeds wep/mil 1.04 AH P-38L vs AH chart

30k 400wep, 385 (chart 405wep, 390)
25k 415wep, 390 (chart 415wep, 400)
20k 395wep, 385 (chart 403wep, 388)
15k 385wep, 370 (chart 387wep, 372)
10k 370wep, 360 (chart 374wep, 360)
05k 355wep, 345 (chart 357wep, 345)
00k 345wep, 330 (chart 345wep, 332)


time to climb, feet per minute, mil power
01k 0:18 3333
02k 0:37 3158
03k 0:56 3158
04k 1:15 3158
05k 1:35 3000 4-6k avg: 3053 chart 3200
06k 1:55 3000
07k 2:14 3158
08k 2:35 2857
09k 2:55 3000
10k 3:16 2857 9-11k avg: 2952 chart 3050
11k 3:36 3000
12k 3:58 2727
13k 4:20 2727
14k 4:42 2727
15k 5:05 2609 14-16k avg: 2648 chart 2850
16k 5:28 2609
17k 5:51 2609
18k 6:15 2500
19k 6:40 2400
20k 7:05 2400 19-21k avg: 2369 chart 2600
21k 7:31 2307
22k 7:58 2222
23k 8:25 2222
24k 8:53 2069
25k 9:22 2069 24-26k avg: 2024 chart 2300
26k 9:53 1935
27k10:25 1875
28k11:01 1667
28k11:40 1538
30k12:23 1395 29-31k avg: 1394 chart 1700
31k13:11 1250

time to climb, feet per minute, WEP
01k 0:17 3529
02k 0:34 3529
03k 0:50 3750
04k 1:07 3529
05k 1:24 3529   4-6k avg: 3529 chart 3700
06k 1:41 3529
07k 1:58 3529
08k 2:15 3529
09k 2:32 3529
10k 2:50 3333  9-11k avg: 3398chart 3500
11k 3:08 3333
12k 3:27 3158
13k 3:46 3158
14k 4:06 3000
15k 4:26 3000 14-16k avg: 3000 chart 3200
16k 4:46 3000
17k 5:07 2857
18k 5:28 2857
19k 5:50 2727
20k 6:13 2609  19-21k avg: 2648 chart 2800
21k 6:36 2609
22k 7:00 2500
23k 7:25 2400
24k 7:51 2308
25k 8:19 2143 24-26k avg: 2150 chart 2350
26k 8:49 2000
27k 9:21 1875
28k 9:55 1765
29k10:33 1579
30k11:15 1428 29-31k avg: 1428 chart 1700
31k12:02 1276

             

             

http://home.worldonline.dk/~winthrop/p38op7.html

HT was meaning to look into the P-38 FM was curious if there is any word on it.

I was reading the operating manual for the P-38 particularly the stall/spin section and dive flaps section:

   

STALLS

a. With power off., the airplane stalls at the following air speeds and gross weights noted.

                         15,000 lbs 17,000 lbs 19.000 lbs
Flaps and landing gear up 94 mph 100 mph  105 mph
Flaps and landing gear DOWN 69 mph 74 mph  78 mph

b. As stalling speed is approached, the centre section stalls first with noticeable shaking of the airplane, however the ailerons remain effective.

c. In either power ON or power OFF stalls with flaps and landing gear up the airplane rushes straight forward in a well controlled stall. With flaps and landing gear down there appears to be a slight tendency for one wing to drop. There is however no tendency to spin. Under these conditions, the nose drops slightly and as the speed increases, the wing will come up.

d. On airplanes equipped with rocket installation the stall characteristics are the same.

SPINS

a. Spin Characteristics

The spin is fast, but recovery is prompt and easy if the proper technique is used.

b. Recovery

The airplane can be brought out of the spin any time by kicking full rudder against the spin for a minimum of half a turn then easing forward the control column. The procedure is as follows:

1. Close throttles.

2. If flaps are down pull them up.

3. KICK FULL RUDDER AGAINST THE SPIN AS BRISKLY AS POSSIBLE, WAIT AT LEAST HALF A TURN BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO PUSH THE WHEEL FORWARD. Recovery is slower by one turn with flaps down. If the flaps are down or on their way up the rudder should be held against the spin for at least one full turn before pushing the column forward.

4. After half a turn, with rudder full over the control wheel may be eased forward as the rotation stops. Recovery can be accomplished in one-and-a-half turns under any condition except with flaps down when two turns will be required. The airplane will come out of the spin in a vertical dive and recovery from the dive should be made slowly in order to avoid a highspeed stall which may cause a spin in the opposite direction. Any attempt to push the wheel forward before kicking full opposite rudder will immediately increase the speed rotation and the acceleration to which the pilot is subjected. If this is encountered pull the wheel full back and hold full rudder against the spin for a minimum of half a turn. Then push the control column forward.

DIVE RECOVERY FLAPS

The airplane without these flaps becomes very nose heavy and starts to buffet above diagram dive speeds (Dia.2.). The dive recovery flaps which are installed under the wings between the booms and tile ailerons restore the lift to this portion of the wing and thus cause the uncontrollable nose heaviness to occur at a higher speed. The flaps also add some drag to the airplane which in conjunction with the higher allowable dive speed permits safer dives at a much steeper diving angle. The dive recovery flaps should be extended before starting the dive or immediately after the dive is started before a buffeting speed has been reached. If the airplane is buffeting before the dive recovery flaps are extended the buffeting will momentarily increase and then diminish. With these flaps extended, the nose heaviness is definitely reduced but the diving speed should never be allowed to exceed the placard by more than 15 or 20 mph. With the dive recovery flaps extended before entering the dive, angles of dive up to 45 degrees may be safely accomplished. Without dive recovery flaps extended the maximum angle for extending dives is 15 degrees. Diving characteristics are better with power off than power on.

the 1.03 stall model was more in line with the p38 stall but still wasn't great. now with 1.04 our AH p-38 will always torque roll to the right and directly into a spin. the P-38 should have no tendancy to spin in a level stall if both wings are stalled equally. but in AH there is no way to get a full blown stall without spinning.


also dive flaps should induce a 10 degree nose up attitude at low speeds with the excess lift and drag they create but in our AH p38 their is no nose up tendancy and no noticeable drag from the flaps.


[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 12-19-2000).]

[SageFIN]

 

Originally posted by -lazs-:
sage.. a painter once told me that there were over 400 shades of black when I asked for a black paint job on my car.   BTW, what does sage mean in finland?   Inane?  drivel?

What I said was in jest, though a bit too offensive I see. I have nothing personal against you. And "sage" doesn't exactly mean anything in finnish but it can easily be pronounced "Sakke", which is a Finnish (nick)name.

As for some constructive input, I wonder how a P-38J or F would manage in the arena if modelled correctly. Yeah, they would have compression problems but at least they would have better turning performances while still retaining a rather good speed.

------------------
---
SageFIN

"I think IŽll believe in Gosh instead of God.  If you donŽt
 believe in Gosh too, youŽll be darned to heck."
---

[lazs]

I would love to see the P38 performance improved but not by making all the other planes perform worse.   The numbers don't seem to be too far off to me tho.   The main reason I don't like the P38 has to do with the views and the compression.   I can't believe that the braces were that hard to see around.  I realize that any view system is limited tho and that AH is at least as good as anything out there.   The plane seems to compress very badly and very quickly tho.  you can get used to it but it does seem excessive.   With better vision and a little better climb and less compression... I would enjoy the P38.
lazs

[SKurj]

raise head position, brace problem solved...
only view issue is them damn big wings/engines,

AKskurj

[F4UDOA]

Great Citabria,

Now check the stall speeds in the manual against the stall speeds in the game. Are they the same? If so what are the differences? Does the P-38 snap roll on a level flight condition or does it in level flight? Have you done any testing against other A/C in the SEA or H2H area's?

Great, then tell Pyro about it and maybe he'll fix it. But attacking other A/C because yours is porked makes no sense.

BTW, are you and Bolillo_Loco the same person??

[Maverick]

 

Originally posted by F4UDOA:
Great Citabria,

Now check the stall speeds in the manual against the stall speeds in the game. Are they the same? If so what are the differences? Does the P-38 snap roll on a level flight condition or does it in level flight? Have you done any testing against other A/C in the SEA or H2H area's?

Great, then tell Pyro about it and maybe he'll fix it. But attacking other A/C because yours is porked makes no sense.

BTW, are you and Bolillo_Loco the same person??

F4Udoa,

I read and reread Citabria's post about the 38 FM. I didn't see a single word about porking ANY other plane in it. As a matter of fact he didn't mention ANY plane except for the 38L.

Now in the same manner of your post. Is F4UDOA the same person as fishu or ram?????

Mav

[BigJoe]

Maverick I can't believe you missed it, if it was a snake it woulda bit ya.  The "f" in shreckin, there's a "4" in 400 and the "u" in minute.  It's a conspiracy I tell ya!

[This message has been edited by BigJoe (edited 12-19-2000).]

[F4UDOA]

Mav,

Hmm, I guess this is the first thread you've read in AH. Welcome to the message boards.

This is what you've missed.

 

ahah the emperor has no clothes.
turn performance of the p38 and f4u have been accidentally switched!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


heh I bet f4udoa would have a cow if the f4u turned like the p38 does in 1.04.
i also find it curious that the f4u1c has such a large turn performance edge over the f4u1d.

yes very curious.


[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 12-14-2000).]

Maverick,

If you want to flame me at least make sure you know what you're whining about.

Notice the complaint is about the P-38 stall speeds but the test data is about speed and climb. I'm just asking that he post the data on the AH stall speeds of the P-38 before ripping other A/C.

And Fishu or RAM? First I am obviously not a Luftwabble and second I have data to back up my whining. Please  

[Hooligan]

Skurj:

Concerning braces and visibility:

Real pilots have binocular vision.  Often when view of an object might be blocked for one eye, the other eye would still be tracking it.  Compared to what a real pilot had to do to keep something in view, moving one's head in AH is very cumbersome indeed IMO.  Real pilots didn't have to shuffle hats around and push arrow keys etc... to keep tracking a target.  What they did in terms of moving their eyes and head was simple and intuitive.  Unfortunately in this area I believe that we suffer from unrealistically difficult problems in AH that the real pilots did not suffer from.  And it is worse in aircraft with lots of canopy framing like the P-38 or C-205.

Hooligan

[Citabria]

stall speeds AH p38L  100% fuel small ammo load (19000lbs)

flaps up, power on, 3g: 200mph
flaps up power off, 1g: 115mph


flaps down (3 notches), power on, 3g: 175mph
flaps down (3 notches), power off, 1g: 100mph
flaps down (full flaps), power off, 1g: 90mph


P-38L POH:
19.000 lbs
Flaps and landing gear up 105 mph
Flaps and landing gear DOWN 78 mph

sustained turns
p-38L turn time sea level 100% fuel full flaps: 22 seconds
p-38L wep turn time sea level 100% fuel 3 nothces of flaps: 20 seconds
p-38L wep turn time sea level 100% fuel, full flaps: 20 seconds.

hi g speed bleeding turn:
turn time from 340mph 100% fuel wep, flaps up (tunnel vision max g pull): 14 seconds




[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 12-19-2000).]