Ju87 attcking B-17?

[Lusche]

I betting that the JU 87 where 2-3 k higher then the bombers, waiting for their arrival.  

And I am betting the report is simply wrong. Planes can me misidentified, typos can make their way through the reports and so on. I can't remember having read any German account or seen any document of Ju-87's being used as a interceptor in the Reichsverteidigung. And it would not have been feasible in any way, with a top speed only slightly above the bombers crusing speed (the 87G with gunpods made ~180mph max!), an abysmal rate of climb which would have made getting into position extremely difficult. And add to that the possibility of running into enemy escorts...

If someone has more evidence... would be glad to be proven being wrong

[oakranger]

And I am betting the report is simply wrong. Planes can me misidentified, typos can make their way through the reports and so on. I can't remember having read any German account or seen any document of Ju-87's being used as a interceptor in the Reichsverteidigung. And it would not have been feasible in any way, with a top speed only slightly above the bombers crusing speed (the 87G with gunpods made ~180mph max!), an abysmal rate of climb which would have made getting into position extremely difficult. And add to that the possibility of running into enemy escorts...

If someone has more evidence... would be glad to be proven being wrong

And you could be right about that too.  How often any bomber crew members ever seen a Ju 87 in combat?

[Scherf]

Any good B-17 / B-24 unit diaries out there which regularly / reliably give bombing altitude and tonnage?

[Angus]

The Stuka is VERY easy to identify. Gull-wings and fixed undercarriage make it on it's own compared to the 190's and 109's. So in my mind, a mis-identification would be ruled out. There would simply nothing be around even resembling the Stuka.
However, the event is highly odd. When was this taking place, and at what altitude? WHERE as well?

[Valkyrie]

I never heard of an event with gun pods but I have read one in "Bomber Pilot"  that stated the  ju 87 dropped bombs with parachutes from above the formation into it. If that helps

Vlkyrie1

[Ack-Ack]

I never heard of an event with gun pods but I have read one in "Bomber Pilot"  that stated the  ju 87 dropped bombs with parachutes from above the formation into it. If that helps

Vlkyrie1

I find that one hard to believe as well, the Ju 87 would have needed a lot of announced notice of the bomber stream and then have sufficient time to be able to in a position above the bombers.  The Ju 87 was just too slow and it service ceiling made it very unlikely that it would be able to successfully intercept any Allied bomber streams.


ack-ack

[RedTeck]

Bombing altitude was listed at 20K for that mission, service ceiling is listed (wiki) at 27K ish with 1,100#s of bomb(s). The ability is there, it would just be a matter of getting to altitude and in front of the bombers. With ground observers or even a trailer plane or two it shouldn't be hard to figure out. Next time you see a big dar bar sprout far behind enemy lines jump in a Ju-87 and start climbing. Plus, you could always thrown in the random. Their flight happened to be in the area when they heard about the raid and decided to play. If I'm not mistaken the Ju-87G-1 had under-wing cannon pods that originated from Flak 18 guns. Just put an air-burst round back in instead of AP?

[Ack-Ack]

Bombing altitude was listed at 20K for that mission, service ceiling is listed (wiki) at 27K ish with 1,100#s of bomb(s). The ability is there, it would just be a matter of getting to altitude and in front of the bombers. With ground observers or even a trailer plane or two it shouldn't be hard to figure out. Next time you see a big dar bar sprout far behind enemy lines jump in a Ju-87 and start climbing. Plus, you could always thrown in the random. Their flight happened to be in the area when they heard about the raid and decided to play. If I'm not mistaken the Ju-87G-1 had under-wing cannon pods that originated from Flak 18 guns. Just put an air-burst round back in instead of AP?

You don't seem to understand that loaded with bombs, the Ju87's airspeed at altitude was under 200mph and wouldn't catch a B-17.  It's best cruising speed at altitude was 242mph at 13,410 unloaded (no gun pods or bombs).  The Ju 87's climb rate, service ceiling and speed made it very unlikely that this ever happened and most likely misidentified by the US aircrews.

Would like to see any Ju 87 unit AARs that describe this encounter, if there is one.

ack-ack  

[oakranger]

You don't seem to understand that loaded with bombs, the Ju87's airspeed at altitude was under 200mph and wouldn't catch a B-17.  It's best cruising speed at altitude was 242mph at 13,410 unloaded (no gun pods or bombs).  The Ju 87's climb rate, service ceiling and speed made it very unlikely that this ever happened and most likely misidentified by the US aircrews.

Would like to see any Ju 87 unit AARs that describe this encounter, if there is one.

ack-ack  

Read the report on page 7-8.  They never said anything of having bombs or gun pods.  All it said was the Ju 87 where attacking the bobers. 

[texastc316]

I'm not saying it didn't happen, not saying it did, or even if it was possible. BUT it makes sense to me, with the way the war was going for Germany, that they might have put anything in the air possible to stop the bombers. Feasible or not.

[oakranger]

I'm not saying it didn't happen, not saying it did, or even if it was possible. BUT it makes sense to me, with the way the war was going for Germany, that they might have put anything in the air possible to stop the bombers. Feasible or not.

That is the way i am seeing it.  If they gone as far as ramming 109s into bombers, they will throw anything in the air to take them down. 

[Grendel]

That is the way i am seeing it.  If they gone as far as ramming 109s into bombers, they will throw anything in the air to take them down. 

There's a difference. A huge difference. In the very last days of the Reich, those ramming pilots had a chance of survival and they were training to ram enemy bombers in a way, that would allow them to escape their plane. A Bf 109 or FW 190 was also a fighter, that had speed and climb rate to catch enemy bomber.
Sending a Ju-87 that had minimal chances of intercepting anything and that was completely suidical against any sort of enemy opposition, that is such stupid idea. The Luftwaffe never had lack of better planes to catch allied bombers and never needed to use tactical dive bombers as bomber interceptors.

Ju-87s against bombers? Nope. Never happened. Never needed to.

[Vulcan]

The Stuka is VERY easy to identify. Gull-wings and fixed undercarriage make it on it's own compared to the 190's and 109's. So in my mind, a mis-identification would be ruled out. There would simply nothing be around even resembling the Stuka.
However, the event is highly odd. When was this taking place, and at what altitude? WHERE as well?

If a fighter lost it's hydraulics it's not unusual for the gear to drop, wasn't one of the heinkels that never made full production a slightly gull winged type?

[oakranger]

There's a difference. A huge difference. In the very last days of the Reich, those ramming pilots had a chance of survival and they were training to ram enemy bombers in a way, that would allow them to escape their plane. A Bf 109 or FW 190 was also a fighter, that had speed and climb rate to catch enemy bomber.
Sending a Ju-87 that had minimal chances of intercepting anything and that was completely suidical against any sort of enemy opposition, that is such stupid idea. The Luftwaffe never had lack of better planes to catch allied bombers and never needed to use tactical dive bombers as bomber interceptors.

Ju-87s against bombers? Nope. Never happened. Never needed to.

But how do you know it never happen? i have the mission report from the 303rd BG combat mission operation report that state on the Ju-87

From the Journal of Vern L. Moncur, 359th BS Pilot:
"In the first wave of enemy planes, there were at least one hundred ME-109s, FW-190s, JU-88s and a few ME-110s and JU-87s", and


Comment from James S. Andrus, Moncur's Radio Operator
"This raid was the worst raid of this theatre of operations. We were bombing the Focke-Wolf
airplane factory and we sure made a mess of it. We had P-47 escorts at the beginning of the raid
and we were supposed to have P-51 escorts near the target, but they didn't show up. As soon as
our escorts left us we were hit by FW-190s, ME-109s, JU-88s and JU-87s. The JU-87 is the Stacey
dive-bomber. They appeared to be waiting on us, because when we saw them they were already
coming into the attack. The whole German Luftwaffe must have been up there, because most of the
B-17s didn't have a chance. I was looking out the hatch in the radio room and I saw the first attack
on the group behind us. It's an amazing sight to see B-17s doing down."

[E25280]

Looking at the report . . . the only eyewitness reference to the JU-87 is in the part quoted above, from a radio operator.  No gunner claims, no other eyewitness reports of JU-87s.  And he describes the JU-87 as a "Stacey".  I have never heard of this term before.  

My take is that he was likely mistaken, but because the radio operator reported seeing JU-87 "Stacey dive bombers", it made it into the summary that JU-87s were present.

The claim is dubious IMO.