It was Lowell and Galland...

[Westy]

 Thanks Dune!      

Off now to find the P-38/Spit story ......

-Westy

[danish]

One thing that has come up here can hardly be right:
Dune quotes: "I had many "violent missions" including my P-38 fight against a long-nose Fw 190 just before our switch from P-38's to P-51's. (note: 364th switched in Aug 44)"
Ospreys Aircraft of the Aces says "late july".
Main point is that Doras were first delivered (to JG54) in late september, assuming airfield cover for the 262's of Kommando Novotny from October 12.
One can of course speculate that Galland - General der Jagdflieger - was flying a protype.But as the original text goes;  "We were
attacked from above, out of the sun by sixteen long nosed FW 190s".16 Doras in battle in july/august 1944 does not seem likely.

That does not prohibit that the actual fight took place.Strong evidence suggests so - but hardly with the Dora as participant.

danish

Edith: BTW Id like to recommend "In My Sights" by James B. Morehead ISBN 0-89141-634-X (hardcover).A highly readable book about one son af a gun doing first tour in P40 in the PAC arena, second tour P38 in ETO.He has several good observations about the P38, lots of dames, and a few fistfights hehe.

EdithII: while edith NoI RAM posted below.Interesting how the same point (timeframe) can be delivered..

EdithIII: better quote sources on the Dora entering service prime october: "Green Harts First In Combat With The Dora 9" by Axel Urbanke ISBN 0-9660706-1-5.This is ASAIR supported in Caldwell's JG26 War Diary, JG26 being the next unit to recieve the Dora.

[This message has been edited by danish (edited 12-21-2000).]

[This message has been edited by danish (edited 12-21-2000).]

[This message has been edited by danish (edited 12-21-2000).]

[RAM]

 

I had many "violent missions" including my P-38 fight against a long-nose Fw 190 just before our switch from P-38's to P-51's. (note: 364th switched in Aug 44)

First deliveries of the Fw190d9 to the Luftwaffe happened in Mid august/1944. The first recipient was the III/Jg54, based at Oldenburg,FYI that is in NW Germany, near Bremen...

 

"One of our last P38 missions was a flight to protect bombers on
a mission near Berlin."

Berlin? That is almost 300 miles E-SE from Oldemburg... wow...the first  190D9s delivered to a LW Gruppe were covering Berlin from a bomber attack instead of doing the transition!!!... incredible

and...300miles...what was doing Galland in Oldenburg anyway?...


Sorry, dune, but you have a DETAILED list of Adolf Galland's kills, well documented (read the link I gave before, please) where no P38 is in the kill list of Adolf Galland. When in that story Galland is credited with no less than 8 P38s?...

You say that just when the first gruppe of the Luftwaffe had just received their first Fw190D9s they were used to cover Berlin?...and leaded by Galland?...

As a side note, the first D9s delivered to the Luftwaffe had no MW50 fitted. Almost all the existing D9s that had no MW50 from Factory were retrofitted later on the field, but the first deliveries to the LW had no MW50. Another part of the story that fails.


Lastly, first the story says that the american guy was in a squadron mission...and attacked by 16 Fw190D9s...highly questionable given whenre and when it happened...but still, he ended ALONE in a ONE ON ONE fight vs the 190? where did the rest of his squadron go!? where did the rest of  III/JG54 go?...they dissapeared in a moment?

Sorry-I say roadkill. That story is apocryphal and I dont believe it. Too many proofs against it, some of them impassable.


 

[RAM]

   

Originally posted by danish:

That does not prohibit that the actual fight took place.Strong evidence suggests so - but hardly with the Dora as participant.

Just the opposite. That actually PROHIBITS that the actual fight taught place...or you REALLY think that Galland won't know he was in a Fw190A instead a D9?...and his little details about the "10 second MW50 boost"?...and his "the power unit of the long nose 190"?

If the P38 guy comes and starts telling a story about long nosed 190D9s and P38s, and he had been listened by Galland, you really think he would have said "you nearly killed me?" sure as he must had been that he never met a p38 in a 190D9?...

you **REALLY** think he wont have made that fact clear when talking with the P38 pilot in that con?

Does someone here has the book "Fighter General" from Adolf Galland (I don't     and I die to have it    )?...I'm sure that a thing like that would be in that book, no kidding, if he was almost killed by a P38 in Germany's best piston aircraft, he would have written it in his memories book, right?.

Sorry to burst the bubble, guys...but the story smelled awful since I read it, but now I am sure that it is untrue. Its pure fiction.


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-21-2000).]

[danish]

I do think that the meeting between Lowell and Galland at the American Fighter Aces annual reunion at Maxwell AFB near Montgomery, Alabama took place, including Gallands outburst.
The history from Lowell may not have been told orginally as we are presented for it here, fex with Dora's.
But there were many witnesness, called upon again later when it was told in "The History of the 364th FG" (havnt got the book myself).

Galland might have thought about another incident, so the two pilots were actually not talking about the same fight.Galland might have been in a A8, just missjudged by Lowell - and not corrected later.

There are several possibilitiers here, all just illustrating why the good well documented tales about fighter mocks in a closed allmost scientific enviroment (here the tar pit) are so interesting.And why good honest pilots can remember just a few facts wrong, that changes our perception.These men are not liars, they just have difficulties remembering details after 30 - 40 - 50 years, details that seemed less important when fighting for your life.

danish

[Dune]

Well Ram, on one hand we have a story told by a Col of the USAAF, an ace, overheard by 32 other aces (and probably others), and reprinted in several books.  Reprinted to the extant that if it was untrue, or Lowell was lying, any of a number of people would have said so.  And on the other hand we have you.

Give you 3 guesses who I believe.  Protest all you want, it doesn't change the veracity of the story.

Danish - You're very right.  It very easily could have been a 190A8 mis-identified in the fight.  And the 364th book is out of print.  It took me 4 months and $90 to get it.  But since my grandfather was in it, it was worth it  

------------------
Lt Col Dune
X.O. 352nd Fighter Group
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"

"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona

[niklas]

Does somebody know which P38 Lowell was flying?
The J or the L ?

[danish]

Dune:
Another book is on the list (wife is going to kill me hehe)

danish

Edith: and congrats on the promotion!

[This message has been edited by danish (edited 12-21-2000).]

[Dune]

Niklas, the 364th flew all P-38J's.  From early Mar 44 to late Jul 44.

If you want to know exactly what plane was flown by every 8th AF FG and which pilot flew it, try this website:  http://www.pyker.dircon.co.uk/index.htm
It is absolutely fantastic.  And the 364th's gallery has some pictures of my grandfather.

Thanks Danish!  Guess I should update my profile huh?  

------------------
Lt Col Dune
X.O. 352nd Fighter Group
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"

"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona

[fats]

About that P-38 vs. Spitfire duel, also found in the same Top Guns book as the P-38 vs. Fw 190D-9. If my memory serves me right the P-38 dude came in diving to the merge several K feet and the Spitfire did not. Duh, which on is going to win that fight? Only perhaps Brewster Buffalo might be able to easily win in such lopsided fight...

It wasn't about the plane it was all about E. It wasn't about pilot skill it was all about E. If you were really to compare the planes I'd set as co-E sittuation as possible.

// fats

[Westy]

 Here is some more on this that I thought would be nice to share with folks. I recieved a few replies that gave a couple of questionable excuses as to how Galland could possibly not won the fight. None replied they thought the sotry was fake or that Galland wasn't there btw.  First excuse was Galland was outnumbered, alone and had to deal with ALL the P-38's. Or also Galland was flying a war  torn aircraft from base to base showing how much damage thier  aircraft could take (I imagine to boost moral). Well,, I posted the story and that should clear up some misconception.

 Anyway.

 I got a very nice,  surprise response from C.C. Jordan, author and publisher of one of my favorite web sites.. Here is his post for you folks.

     -Westy

====================================================


Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 13:30
Subject: Re: Looking for USAAF P-38 aircombat story....
From: Jordan@worldwar2aviation.com (C.C.Jordan)
Organization: Jordan Publishing

>> > Maybe Galland was having hard time with all those extra *guys* and
>> > not with the Lightning per se?
>> >
>> > That would be the most obvious conclusion.
>>
>> The other P-38s did not engage, they flew top cover. However,
>> it is safe to assume that had Galland gotten the upper hand on
>> Lowell, the others would have pounced.
>>
>> My regards,
>> C.C. Jordan
>
>
>
> ... not quite  Galland wasn't alone and he wasn't flying a
> "beater" base to base either.  -Westy

Thank you for the details. I got the story from notes made by
George Ceuleers who was the eventual commander of the
383rd FS, 364th FG. George was not present during the combat.
He wrote his recollection of the story in the 1980s. The last
time I spoke with George's wife (Eleanor), he was still in a
nursing facility in Denver. His mind was failing him, although
his overall physical health wasn't too bad. I really should
call Eleanor for an update. George had spent years writing
his memiors, only to throw much of it into the trash during
an episode when his mind simply failed him. Very little of his
papers remain and his wife guards what survived very closely.

I don't know if many people know this outside of George's
inner circle, but George had a very nasty feud with Joe Foss
and Tom Lanphier back in the 1970s. George even resigned
from the American Fighter Aces Association over this dispute.
IRRC, George was one of the founding members.

Ceuleers P-38J-15-LO carried the squadron numbers N2-D.
The serial number is unkown (to me) as all existing photos
show that the S/N was painted over by the squadron's white
disk on the rudders.

Lowell's P-51D-20-NA Mustang (44-73045) carried the
squadron numbers 5Y-L.

>
> (btw C.C. Jordan, I enjoy your website very, very much. I've
>  been wondering why no updates these past few months and hoping
>  all was well.)

Thank you for your concern.

My wife's health has been poor, although steadily improving.
Additionally, I have been doing a great deal of writing with Warren
Bodie, which has reduced my spare time to next to nothing.
Meanwhile, I received a promotion at my regular job (engineering)
that added considerable responsibility and placed a greater demand
on my time.

The web site will be extensively updated between Christmas
and New Years day. I have the week off and will be uploading
a lot of material that has been ready for formatting for some
time now. One piece is especially interesting. This is the story
of the Reggiane RE-2000. The piece was written by Max Cappone
and translated from Italian to English. Several rare photos are
included. I expect to have this article up this weekend.

[snip Lowell's great story]

Over the past several years, I, along with several others, have
tried to break through the myth that the P-38 was somehow
inferior to the Luftwaffe's single engine fighters. One of our
most repeated arguments is that the P-38 was more than a
match for any German fighter IF the American pilot had sufficient
training and experience to extract the available performance
from this operationally complex aircraft. Lowell gives us an
excellent example of how fearsome the Lightning could be.
Moreover, when we take into account that this particular
Fw 190D-9 was flown by one of the Luftwaffe's very best,
perhaps readers will realize that the P-38J was not a fighter
to be under-rated. Especially at lower altitudes where it did
not suffer from compressibility problems. Had Lowell been
flying a P-38L with another 300 hp, boosted ailerons and dive
flaps, Galland may not have avoid destruction until Lowell
ran low on fuel allowing him to escape.

Lowell's story certainly makes it difficult to understand Galland's
P-38 comments that he included in his "The First And The Last".
I have been told by several pilots who knew Galland personally
that much of his post-war remarks and writing were very self-
serving. As I have stated before, if Galland really believed that the
Lightning was no better than the Me 110 before his encounter
with Lowell, he certainly could not have believed it afterward.
It still sounds like sour grapes or at best, faulty rationalizing.

My regards,
C.C. Jordan
 http://www.worldwar2aviation.com  http://www.cradleofaviation.org

[RAM]

I say that the story is not true. I say that Galland was not there.I say that if such a fight had taught place in real life, the 190 would have been an A8 and not a D9.

We have proof that for the time being in that story, the fight could not be a P38-190D9 one. And less with a MW50 190D9. And much less involving 15 190D9s more.

 The story **REMARKS** details of the "long nosed 190D9", so the pilot WAS POSITIVE about the identification of the 190.

This alone makes the story be false, for me (as the same starting point of the story is false), but we have more:

First: We have proof that Galland has no P38 kills when in the story he assures he has 8. One thing is to brag and be self-servish in a book...
 other is to say such a lie in the middle of a convention of ex-ww2 pilots where respect is at the outmost and useless bragging (more in a general leutenant with 104 kills who needs no motives to brag) can lead to disrespect.
 I highly doubt that Galland lied so blatantly in a veterans convention. This is another piece on the story that isnt right. IMO.

Second: There is no such reference in Adolf Galland's memories book. Such a passage wont be forgotten by him, more if we take in account that he describes how was he downed a lot of times...why didnt he say a thing about this one?

Third, if Galland was in that convention, and if we give as true that the fight took place, say , between a P38 and a 190A8 instead a D9, how come that galland didnt make that clear?...A8 was a way worse machine than D9 as we all know, and if he was so self-servish he won't have lost the chance to make it clear. And anyway Galland in the story seems very interested to know everything about that fight, all details of the P38 moves and how were done...

All that need for detail and he lets pass that he wasn't in a 190D9?. Sorry, unveliable.

Fourth: Galland was at the time General der Jagdflieger. Was banned to fly combat missions. Only two of the 104 kills were done while he was banned to fly. That doesnt mean he couldnt be there, that means that it is HIGHLY improbable he was there.

Fifth: I keep on asking where did Galland's wingman go, and where did Lowell's wingman go...and all their respective squadrons too, by the way. Or did they vanish on the air?

Sum all those things and I say that the story is simply not true ,from the start to the end. The combat is fiction, for sure, and unless a present witness assures it to me, I think that the story of Galland getting pale its false too.

 I wont mind if it was Galland or not in that story,had it been true. he was downed how many times?...14?...and he was almost killed by James Finnegan's P47D in his Me262.

 He was a top notch ace and one I respect the most, but that doesnt mean he could not be beaten. He was beaten more than a dozen times, but I simply say that the story here told can't be true. IMO is an apocryphal story, invented.

I dont slam the P38 as a bad fighter (try to quote me doing it, I've always said I like the plane), and I dont try to steal merit to Lowell. I only say that the story has too many incorrections that simply can't be true.

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-23-2000).]

[danish]

True Galland had great self esteem, and didnt dwell too much about the past when presented in less glorious lights.As exampels can be his arrogant rejection of the new radio tecnologi in 1939-40 as mentioned by Ulrich Steinhilper in "Spitfire on My Tail" or his rather unpleasant behavior towards the pilots on Sicily and Southers Italy spring 1943 as told by fex Jochen Prien in the great JG53 books or Johannes Steinhofer in "The Last Chance" or a couple of other books.
Guess it could be called image management ;=)

That he was a truly great pilot cannot be disputed, and overall a intelligent and effective General der Jadgflieger, had he had his will would have cost the allied dearly.

His remarks about the p38 in general only reflects the common opinion among LW pilots, again build on a few months of battle in northern Africa and Sicily; theething problems with the new fighter combined with inexperienced pilots.

The other way around you may argue that the respect for the p51 is build on the fact that it entered the arena at a time when the strategic situation was turned upside down, and dominans and victories came cheap (read: cheaper).

Interesting to read Mr Jordans comments;=)I am sure he would be most interested as well in our little new discovery here: that the Fw Lowell met was not (with a high degree of certenty) the Dora ;=)

RAM: we dont know how the history was presented at that Veteran Meeting.The word "longnose" might well have not been said, or misconcepted even.It happens all the time.Myself working in healthcare have noumerous exampels of such misconceptions, ultimatly threatening peoples life or health.We only manage so well because we allways double check ;=)

Yes the Veteran Meeting took place, yes Galland made the outburst.
This makes it higly likely that the fight took place de facto.But no - not in a Dora ,=)

danish

[Nath-BDP]

Galland was a punk anyways...  

Heinz Baer and Walther Dhal were much l33ter.

[danish]

Galland wasnt a punk.He just liked big cigars ,=)

Agree on Baer.He did extremely well personally under all conditions, was very well liked by lower ranks (big plus in my books heh), and was a very keen geschwader fuhrer.And he wasnt afraid of telling superiors the truth (even bigger plus).I beleve some put Baer as the overall No1 LW ace, in front of Hartmann, Marseille and Co.

Dont know that much about Dahl except personal data ect, however I noticed this short paragraf from the "Black Cross Red Star" vol 1:
"Two Bf 109's managed to take off.The pilots, Hauptmann Gollop and his wingman, Oberleutnant Walther Dahl, pursued the attackers back over the Dnieper and later returned with claims of two I-153's shot down.Both Gollop and Dahl were known to be very ambitious, and at least the latter has been proven to have wildly exaggerated some of his succeses."

And the book seems extremely well documented.


danish




[This message has been edited by danish (edited 12-23-2000).]