squad system idea

[Bronk]

And I will say point blank I believe MEGA squads are bad for the game.

HiTech

 

[The Fugitive]

To me it would not matter if there was no such thing as squads in the game, the group of uf who enjoy each others company would still fly together.  You may be correct that there is a limit of 32 players but that is purely semantics. We fly as one squad, all part of the same thing. We do not have a negative affect on gameplay (infact alot of people would say we have a possitive one) so whats the big deal with us calling ourself one squad or two?

The point im trying to make is that being part of a large squad is not 'destroying gameplay' it is the attitude of individuals or of groups of individuals however large or small that is having a negative impact.

This is what I'm saying, large squads are capable of having either a positive effect...like yours... or a negative effect. The squads that have the negative effect are those that are slowly destroying game play with horde tactics.

Sure I understand exactly what you are saying. I was just quoting the most profound part of your previous post, that the problem is 'yours' and that if the people you are complaining about are having fun in what they do then no ammount of postulating is ever going to get your world view to stick with them. Again please note I am speaking as a devil's advocate and not as someone who enjoys steam rolling undefended bases or fighting in 10-1 odds in my favour. All I am saying is that you are wasting your time in this crusade to 'save aces high' because people are going to do what they enjoy, and clearly some of us enjoy taking bases by any means possible. My advice to everyone in your possition is stop making it your problem and get on with what you enjoy.

On one hand your saying you DON"T enjoy horde tactic, and then before you end the paragraph you say you will use ANY tactic to grab a base, including horde tactics? Make up your mind  

Remember these are not just MY points of view, but the same views posted by many folks on these boards. I'm not trying to foster off "my world view" on anyone, all I'm doing is suggesting ways of adding fun to squad play. BaldEagl posted about "rewards" he did for his squad. Great idea! It adds more fun, another challenge, and wait for it......... a training ground to increase the over all skill of the squad, and there by the community ! The problem with the big squads today is they don't want to spend the time to train, they would much rather look for a work around to avoid a skilled opponent instead of getting more skilled themselves to over come that opponent.

I'm not saying ALL big squads are like this, however those that do fit this mold are getting to be the majority, and the good squads that train and are respected are getting to be the minority. If the trend continues it will again start to effect HTC's bottom line. What do you think will happen then? These squads have it in there power to shape the game play in a large portion of the map. It's up to them to decide if its a positive effect, or a negative one. Positive ones will be rewarded with better game play and more fun for all, negative ones will bring in HTC and his big stick. ...just saying.  

[Masherbrum]

Dan and Fugi, excellent posts.  

[kilo2]

There is a few questions I have.

One-If people like to fly in a horde and do so why is that a problem?

Two-Why do people post as if the sky is falling due to large squads?

Three-How does someone else being better or worse at the game effect your enjoyment of the game?

[jimson]

I will concede that there are many things I would like to change about my squad.

I am not the CO however.

There is a movement within to have better training and practice sessions, mostly for ACM.

This is a positive development, and one of the reasons to be in a squad in the first place.

As long as captures are an objective of the game, there will be those that seek to accomplish it in any way possible.

Arguably it is more realistic than limiting what you do for some make it more fun for the other side purpose, although I understand that.

I absolutely hate to be vulched, but no pilot would have allowed an enemy threat a chance to take off if he could prevent it in WW2.

Recognizing that it is a game, I refuse to vulch and when I see others do it, I suggest they don't.

One of the most popular types of game play are scenarios and FSO. No one seems to mind the "meet the objective in any way aspect" there, but something different seems to be expected in the MA.

I truly don't have much regard for the MA, the whole "every countries plane enabled for anyone on any side" is not my cup of tea. To me that pretty much makes it an "anything goes" arena.

I much prefer the immersive set ups of the scenarios or AvA.

My squad isn't as monolithic as some seem to think, some of us rarely fly the big base dumping missions and the squad does many other things. We fly in AvA, we have begun participating in the dueling league. Snapshots, FSO, even in the MA we often concentrate on base defense or run fighter sweeps.

In any case, I think it is crappy and a waste of time to constantly call out a squad for being a horde, even to the point of invading their every thread, of any kind, to flame them. Being a bbs flaming horde isn't any better.

I still think that half the effort spent complaining that the CJ's ruin everyone's fun, spent using some quick deployment counter horde tactics would lead to some terrific CO-ALT battles.

It could be fun, strategic game play. One side trying to figure where the other one will strike next and moving quickly enough to stop it.
 
 
jimson

[RufusLeaking]

I will concede that there are many things I would like to change about my squad.

…

My squad isn't as monolithic as some seem to think, some of us rarely fly the big base dumping missions and the squad does many other things. We fly in AvA, we have begun participating in the dueling league. Snapshots, FSO, even in the MA we often concentrate on base defense or run fighter sweeps.

In any case, I think it is crappy and a waste of time to constantly call out a squad for being a horde, even to the point of invading their every thread, of any kind, to flame them. Being a bbs flaming horde isn't any better.

  A sincere attempt at expressing a valid opinion. 

Unfortunately, the opposing camp will not consider that there are different ways to have fun.

Is there real data that supports the statement that large squads "are slowly destroying game play with horde tactics?"  No one, not even a Claim Jumper like me, wants to destroy game play. 

Recently, another large set of squads were running bases.  I was on defense with a few green guys, one or two of which were squad mates.  The chess match aspect of trying to counter their next move was enjoyable.  A horde can actually increase fun.

There are many possible game actions that can be said to ‘ruin game play.  Spying is an example.  If two guys are so inclined, one can easily report missions to an enemy.  Last night, as a test, a CJ mission was posted and announced.  It was a rather dull 6 or 7 sector hail mary NOE.  It was to see if we were being 'ratted' out.  As it turns out, a Typhie ups before we break dar and greets us on the way in.  I have my suspicions that some horde hating zealot griefed the mission.  The mission was only a dozen or so guys, half of which were non CJs.  Some horde. 

Pardon the ramble.  My point is that fun, ruining fun, even the definition of 'horde' is in the eye of the beholder.

99% of horde monkeys do not set out to ruin game play.

[The Fugitive]

There is a few questions I have.

One-If people like to fly in a horde and do so why is that a problem?

Two reasons I can think of up front, first they are limiting themselves. By limiting themselves to hide in the horde they will most likely never get much better at the game and will be frustrated more often due to more skilled players defeating them. Also they are limiting the fun they can have. Being the last guy to the fight means you have bombs but no target, and the vulch is over with no defenders to fight.... why did you spend 15 minutes to get there?

Second, by flying in a horde you are killing the fun of others. Picture yourself on the receiving end, how much fun is it really? Sure some will defend against the horde, but in the end it just isn't worth the frustration so many say why bother. In doing so your horde no longer has anyone to fight against, limiting the fun for the horde, and the defenders are off looking for fun some place else taking away part of the map that is no longer fun.

Two-Why do people post as if the sky is falling due to large squads?

Because it IS the down fall of good game play... see HT's quote HERE

Moot is 100% correct about why squad limits exist.They exist because group dynamics change when not everyone in one group know each other.  And I will say point blank I believe MEGA squads are bad for the game.

HiTech

DO you know what one of the major reason we got a split MA arena? Do to the population growth in the MA some squads continued to recruit players going against the 32 limit rule and grew into mega squads. This created times were it would be 3 hordes on the map all carefully avoiding each other trying to back door bases faster than the other hordes to win the war. A lot of people didn't like that type of game play and subscriptions started to be canceled at a big enough rate that HTC stepped in to try a halt the hordes and other poor game play that the large arena population was generating.

The sky may not be falling, but IF the arenas continue into the downward spiral they seem to be on now, who's to say what steps HTC may have to take next. 

Three-How does someone else being better or worse at the game effect your enjoyment of the game?

Someone being better or worst doesn't effect my enjoyment of the game at all. If they are better I work to improve, if they are worst, they have to work to improve, but this has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Skill is a by-product of the horde. The bigger the squad the less skilled it has to be to accomplish the same objectives. 8 players hitting a base have to be much better at bombing and fighting than a group of 30. Hordes just generate less skill. Then those players can not step out of that shadow because it become very frustrating for them to do anything WITHOUT the horde because there skill level is so low.

I will concede that there are many things I would like to change about my squad.

I am not the CO however.

There is a movement within to have better training and practice sessions, mostly for ACM.

This is a positive development, and one of the reasons to be in a squad in the first place.

As long as captures are an objective of the game, there will be those that seek to accomplish it in any way possible.

Arguably it is more realistic than limiting what you do for some make it more fun for the other side purpose, although I understand that.

<snip>
 
 
jimson

Great post Jimson, I snipped it to make room but left the part I want to talk about. It's great that your squad is talking about moving toward training and such.

I'm not saying this strait to you and your squad, but to everyone in a squad, but this in my opinion is where a squad makes the transition from "squeeker squad" to one that may last and become a respected squad. Don't just talk about it, push for it, make it happen. If it doesn't happen you might want to ask yourself is that the kind of squad you want to be in. If not, join one that does have a good training program, or make your own. People shouldn't join a squad because it has a cool name. Make your squad a worthy opponent. Make your squad a fearsome group in the arenas NOT because you can throw more numbers at a target, but because your skills get you what others NEED numbers to do.   

[Shifty]

One of the most popular types of game play are scenarios and FSO. No one seems to mind the "meet the objective in any way aspect" there, but something different seems to be expected in the MA.

I don't think you guys get expectations as far as the FSO is concerned either.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,283670.0.html

You might want to make sure you get a copy of the e-mail Dadog mentions before going on anymore about how misunderstood you guys are.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,283690.0.html

[Bruv119]

we have begun participating in the dueling league.

Not to nitpick or anything but i'm still awaiting 3 or 4 named BBS contacts from flifast, so that I can add you to the private dueling league forum.  

You had a one off custom match against the jokers that I know of but that was outside the realms of the SDL and not played under the same rules.

For a large squadron like the claim jumpers it should be very easy to field a minimum of 6 pilots and I would welcome the extra activity that you guys would bring to the SDL.

[jimson]

I don't think you guys get expectations as far as the FSO is concerned either.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,283670.0.html

You might want to make sure you get a copy of the e-mail Dadog mentions before going on anymore about how misunderstood you guys are.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,283690.0.html

Have I mentioned there are a lot of things I'd like to change about my squad?

Seriously, this isn't what you would like too see while you are in the middle of defending your  guys.

I must confess I truly didn't understand the ramifications of this, only that there were enmy strats in our area and that nothing said hitting them was forbidden, it just wouldn't count for anything.

All I can do is offer a personal "mea culpa" for my participation in that.



My mistake Bruv, I thought  it was further along than that.

[mechanic]

This is what I'm saying, large squads are capable of having either a positive effect...like yours... or a negative effect. The squads that have the negative effect are those that are slowly destroying game play with horde tactics.

Ok, i see what you're getting at there. My only argument is that a large squad roster does not automatically equate a horde mentality.

On one hand your saying you DON"T enjoy horde tactic, and then before you end the paragraph you say you will use ANY tactic to grab a base, including horde tactics? Make up your mind  

unless you're joking i think you misunderstood me. I said 'some of us'. This refers to the entire AH community and not to myself.

Remember these are not just MY points of view, but the same views posted by many folks on these boards. I'm not trying to foster off "my world view" on anyone, all I'm doing is suggesting ways of adding fun to squad play. BaldEagl posted about "rewards" he did for his squad. Great idea! It adds more fun, another challenge, and wait for it......... a training ground to increase the over all skill of the squad, and there by the community ! The problem with the big squads today is they don't want to spend the time to train, they would much rather look for a work around to avoid a skilled opponent instead of getting more skilled themselves to over come that opponent.

I'm not saying ALL big squads are like this, however those that do fit this mold are getting to be the majority, and the good squads that train and are respected are getting to be the minority. If the trend continues it will again start to effect HTC's bottom line. What do you think will happen then? These squads have it in there power to shape the game play in a large portion of the map. It's up to them to decide if its a positive effect, or a negative one. Positive ones will be rewarded with better game play and more fun for all, negative ones will bring in HTC and his big stick. ...just saying.  

gotcha!