Author Topic: Buff .50cals == fighter .50cal?  (Read 1516 times)

Offline fats

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Buff .50cals == fighter .50cal?
« on: January 23, 2000, 11:02:00 AM »
Are the AH .50cals used by gunners the same ( lethality in particular ) as the .50cals used fighters?


//fats


Offline Vermillion

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Buff .50cals == fighter .50cal?
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2000, 11:39:00 AM »
It sure doesn't seem like it, does it Fats   .

Its got to the point that I would rather let a bomber go unmolested and bomb the crap outta my country than face the almost certain death.

And please don't anyone pipe up with the "if you attack right its easy bit", I know how to attack a bomber correctly and with patience.



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Offline Hangtime

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Buff .50cals == fighter .50cal?
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2000, 11:47:00 AM »
Rgr that last transmission; Verm.  

Hang; out!

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Offline Tern

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Buff .50cals == fighter .50cal?
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2000, 11:47:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Vermillion:
...And please don't anyone pipe up with the "if you attack right its easy bit", I know how to attack a bomber correctly and with patience.

Well I dunno bout y'all.  But I drop on the buff from no less than 5k alt and hose him down from the near vertical dive.  So far it's worked everytime and I never got dinged once.  In fact only time I ever get dinged is when I come in at +/-20 degrees to their 6 and at distance.  When I go vertical they die every time.

BTW - I'm in a pony when I do this.  And yes it seems the buff .50's are more lethal.

"Live to Fly!  Fly to Fight!  Fight to Live!"


Offline BaneX

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Buff .50cals == fighter .50cal?
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2000, 09:07:00 AM »
I don't think the buff's .50's aremore lethal, I think it's due to the fact that from certain angles you're actually being hit by more than one gunner position on the buff. If you come in from the low 6, you're quite likely being hit by both the tail, ball, and possibly the one of the waist guns. That's 5 .50's right there and with most convergences for buff gunners set to 650
and fighters set at 200-400 the buff is most likely going to win.

Not sure if I'm totally correct, but that's what I think is going on.

BaneX
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Offline MiG Eater

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Buff .50cals == fighter .50cal?
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2000, 01:31:00 PM »
I think that people find the Buff guns more lethal is the result of their use and not overall firepower compared to a fighter.  A Buff gunner's airplane is being flown nice and steady while sitting in his turret.  The only thing they have to do is track an airplane from a steady platform.  

Fighters, OTH, have the pilot flying a twitching, turning, wobbling gun platform while trying to hit a bomber.  Its even worse when trying to dodge the defensive fire.  I am always surprised to see how many tracers extend beyond the plane I'm firing at even when I'm seeing a lot of hit sprites (while viewing films in slow motion).  I'm sure they miss the fighters just as much but are able to send out a longer more concentrated stream of fire.

MiG

Offline dolomite

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Buff .50cals == fighter .50cal?
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2000, 01:48:00 PM »
Well...

I kill far more buffs than buffs kill me. I can kill them in anything in the set (some planes easier than others, of course). I have gotten to the point of being able to take them reliably from all but the dead six. There are cracks in them cones O' death, and they are exploited easier in AH (ironically) because the gunner has to switch positions to keep you aligned.

I make my passes so the gunner must switch positions at least once throughout my run (unless I dive vertically from above). The more times you get them to hop, the more likely it is you get a kill.

As to the original question, yeah, seems they have a better range on the buff.

Even a 109F-4 (with 20mm and no gondolas) will kill buffs if you get close enough.

[This message has been edited by dolomite (edited 01-25-2000).]

Offline fats

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Buff .50cals == fighter .50cal?
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2000, 03:04:00 PM »
Sorta knew there would be experts saying this way or that way, even backing it up with the dreaded "if flown right"-rebutal, with out _any real facts_. Anyone interested in running some lethality tests, if we can't get answer from HTC cause suppose they might be busy with their 1.0 release issues.


//fats


Offline Pyro

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Buff .50cals == fighter .50cal?
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2000, 03:24:00 PM »
Fats, the lethality is the same between a fighter's .50s and a bomber's .50s provided the same firing conditions.  In a tail chase on a bomber, the bomber will probably have a bit of an advantage firing backward vs the fighter firing forward, but I don't know how big of a difference that makes.



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Offline dolomite

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Buff .50cals == fighter .50cal?
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2000, 03:52:00 PM »
fats-

Sorry to offend you with the observations. Meant nothing in a condescending tone. I just don't see it entirely the way you do, I guess. I seem to be able to kill buffs easily enough; others don't. I have no clue why that is. My proof I suppose might be my k/d against buffs over all the tours I've flown (though I wouldn't know with any certainty what those numbers are). If you want me to say that perhaps I feel buff guns reach farther, yeah, I agree.

I'm not trying to teach you or anyone else how to kill bombers. The only thing I can offer is my experience in the matter, and it just doesn't entirely back up the over lethal buff gun concept.  

Offline dolomite

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Buff .50cals == fighter .50cal?
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2000, 04:01:00 PM »
...just checked the stats.

dolomite vs. B-17G  29 kills, 8 deaths
dolomite vs. B-26B  26 kills, 0 deaths

Again, not trying to be disrespectful. What kind of evidence do you want?

Offline Hangtime

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Buff .50cals == fighter .50cal?
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2000, 04:23:00 PM »
Pyro..

Jeeze.. yer the 'man' when it comes to this kinda stuff; so it's tuff to argue with 'the word'..

BUT!

I've observed that the buff can kill a fighter from MUCH farther ranges than the fighter can.. If I attempt to hose a target from d1.5 to d1.0 in a fighter, I may see a few hit sprites; but certainly I'm not taking a wing off.. On the other hand; it seems the buff can put out a 'stream' of slighly unconverged lead; stripping off wings and tail of a fighter from d1.5 to d1.0; and the 'unfocused' guns on the buff pretty much eliminate 'jinking' as a defensive move. The 'kill zone' on a buff semms much larger than a fighters.

Unless.. you have changed it with this last revision?

Hang

The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

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Offline Skorpyon

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Buff .50cals == fighter .50cal?
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2000, 11:31:00 PM »
I think most of you are forgetting something... convergence.  In a fighter, no one gun, or combination of guns, (except cowl-mounted) is shooting straight ahead.  The wing guns are all shooting at a slight angle, the bullet paths converging into one group at the distance set by the pilot in the hangar.  Nearer or farther than this distance, and the fighter's bullet paths are not concentrated in one small, devastating group, but are instead spread out over a wider area.  In the bombers on the other hand, the gun being used to sight with is shooting dead on straight, is sitting in a nice, smooth riding turret, and has potentially several other sets of guns firing also.  The primary gun used maintains a farther "virtual" effective range, because of the straight path of the rounds.  The other guns that are "auto" firing must rely on convergence, but when you can fire dead on from 1.3k or so with the primary gun, the slight inaccuracy of the secondary guns is not a problem.  In fact, they help to compensate for any mis-aim by the gunner on the primary gunsight.  In essence, there are two distinct bullet paths being fired.. one straight down the middle, with obvious longer accuracy range, and the secondary path(s) that cross over and cause a spread pattern similar to that of the fighters.  Sorta like firing a shotgun and a rifle at the same target, at the same time, from the same spot.  Only makes sense that any relatively steady target is dead meat.. or rather minced meat.  

Offline fats

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Buff .50cals == fighter .50cal?
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2000, 07:16:00 AM »
Pyro,

ok.


Dolomite,

No don't go defensive. I just think it's funny that when ever there's a discussion or a question about pretty much anything that _could_ be proved to be one way or the other with clear facts, someone will come in and use the "if flown right" argument which really has no value.

Discussions like which is your favourite plane, is all about personal experience/feeling and "if flown right" bares as much weight as any other argument I guess. But if you ask which plane turns better; P-51D or Fw 190A-4, you will get 2 different answers from 3 types of people. P-51 pilots will say P-51D and Fw 190 pilots will say Fw 190A-4 and then those who have actually _tested_ the sittuation in a controlled way will say P-51D. Both of the pilot-types will say something like: "if flown right" or "I kill plenty of P-51/Fw 190 in the arena with my Fw 190/P-51".


//fats


Offline dolomite

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Buff .50cals == fighter .50cal?
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2000, 07:41:00 AM »
Fats-

Agreed. Should have stayed out of it. If you have any idea of a test, I'd be happy to help.