Author Topic: How to evade  (Read 1288 times)

Offline Eagleclaw

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How to evade
« on: March 07, 2010, 08:36:51 AM »
Situation: I look around and see an enemy high on my six. When he begins to dive, i watch closely. when he gets to a certain distance, I chop throttle and bank. He has much more E than me so the afore mentioned maneuver seems logical [/u] he cannot maneuver, turn to escape[/u]. sometimes it works, sometimes not. either a few bullet holes or wondering where my wing went. Is there any way to evade the dive attack that actually works?
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Online The Fugitive

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Re: How to evade
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2010, 08:51:31 AM »
It's better to keep your speed up so you can use it to fight back with. If all your thinking about is surviving the pass your half way to giving up the fight already!

One good options is to get your nose a little low and start to accelerate. As you build some speed...not to fast, just a good fighting speed... turn toward your enemy. Start out as an easy turn and as he gets closer tighten it up. This will forces him to burn some "E" trying to get his shot. As he gets to guns you should be close to black out with your wing tip pointed at him (smallest profile for him to hit). As he passes you pull up and turn back into him the other way. If your timing is good you'll have a quick snap shot on him.

Gauge his "E". If he pulls away fast, go nose level or a bit nose down to keep your speed for another pass. If he zooms away but NOT up I turn away and give him my 6 again to set him up for the same type of pass. If he zooms strait up looking to hook you on the rope< I'll do a lazy flat turn to keep my "E" up and a wing pointed at him.

Murdr use to have a film of this move on the traners site. I'm not sure if it's still there, but you could check.

Offline Eagleclaw

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Re: How to evade
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2010, 08:59:02 AM »
cc, appreciate it.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: How to evade
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2010, 09:44:18 AM »
I'd suggest the first part of the attack is you turning into it. Why wait for him to be "x" distance off your 6 oclock to turn? Turn first, using whatever BFM you want/like, but don't sit there like a duck.

You never know when he'll get a nice high angle deflection, will open fire further than you expect with uncanny accuracy, or heck, he may just have a lot more E than you think.

IMO, don't be the duck, don't wait for him, make your own moves.

Outside of that philosophy, I'd say there's way too many option (up, down, left, right, turn, loop, dive) to really give a single suggestion. Fugitive has a good point about not blowing your E. If the bad guy misses and pulls up he can do that all day unless you save your E while he wastes his.

Offline Big Rat

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Re: How to evade
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2010, 09:51:39 AM »
I agree with Fugitive, but to further elaborate on why to keep your speed up.  When I'm diving on somebody's 6 from high and I see them start to pull a turn left or right,  I'll offset my run to that side, in other words I'm expecting them to get so far left or right by the time I get there and I'm aiming for that point.  When attacking I want to keep my E higher then my opponent so the less turning I can do the better.  So the further you can put that intersection point from their line of travel the more of a turn they have to do, the more E they have to burn.  When you cut throttle on your turn you are making that intersection point closer to his line of travel, since the distance you traveled on your turn will be less, that and the fact your are losing E faster then he is, given him the bigger advantage on the next pass if you survived the first.

 :salute
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Offline Sonicblu

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Re: How to evade
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2010, 09:58:01 AM »
I use a similar tactic to fugitive.

As the bandit gets on you six about 1.5 out start a slight nose down back to him. As he gets guns on about 600yrd point your nose at his wingtip and roll with his wingline. Fugitive is right if he continues with guns on he will lose  a little bit of E. and as you roll he will pass by and come across the front of our guns giving you a snapshot.

The reason it works is as he is trying to get guns on he has to fire enough lead that you are under his nose and he can't see you. If you start your roll with the wing line you start to roll while he is blind and before he knows it you are rolling onto a lead position for a snapshot.

If the bandit has lots of E he will just go up and try again. Do the same thing over the object for me at this point is to stay out of guns and Burn his E. As you get closer to his e state you will have better position on him.

If he goes back up, as soon as he does go straight nose down slightly, as soon as he goes over the top turn back into him again. If you are a little nose down and he is at the top of his loops He is real slow. If you turn back into him, you cut of the distance so he can't build E as he has less distance to. And you are slightly nose down so you are building E. Don't turn too hard your goal is turn just hard enough to get back to him and accelerate. You can allways turn more as you get closer if you didnt judge it right.

You want full throtle and wep if you have it.

Look me up and pm me when you see me on be happy to go to DA and go over it with you. Take you as far as I can. In game ID Sonicblu.

Film your sorties and look from the other pilots perspective. This will help alot.

Offline Agent360

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Re: How to evade
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2010, 10:22:27 AM »
Chopping the throttle as you describe is the absolute worst thing you can do. This will allow the bandit with superior speed to close on you fast, as he banks into your break he will close so fast that he flys almost strait at your banked plane/canopy and just blows you up with a close burst.

The high six diving bandit with superior speed----

There are 2 ways to handle this.

1 - Prepare to escape

Full throttle, wep if you have it, nose down shallow and gain as much speed as you can. Continue to accerate to the last second. As the bandit closes inside of D-800 break hard to 90 degrees (NOT 120, not 180 not 45).

Continue nose shallow down and go strait. Do not do anything to loose energy and keep going. The bandit will not be able to get guns on your break and will be forced to go up or strait.

What you have done is create maximum seperation. The bandit will be about 1 or 2 k out now depending on how fast he was going and probably above you the same amount.

If the bandit wings over and chases it will take some time for him to catch you. If he does you do the same thing but break the oppisite way this time 90 degrees and keep going. You can do this over and over without the bandit ever getting guns.

The goal is for you to keep your speed. Every time the bandit pulls for guns and goes up you will keep seperating to the point of being 2 or 3 k out. You can then just keep trucking and get away. If there is a hord nearby you want to make sure you turn in such a way as to be going away from the hord...dont end up going back to it.

2 - Prepare to engage.

Nearly all players, even ace sticks will attempt to go up on a missed pass. If you "want" to get a fight out of this you have to do something to CLOSE the seperation.

Nose down as above and accelerate. Watch the closure. IF the bandit is closing fast you want to begin a loose banking turn at about 1.5k. As he closes begin to gently tighten this turn. If the bandit is closing slow or none at all he wants to saddle up...this one is easy...break hard into him and merge or start scissoring.

This is called a "bait turn". You continue to be nose down or level...NOT UP. IF you started with some alt say 5 k atleast you can equalize the energy by doing this bait turn. Draw the bandit in to your six.

You want him to stay with you. If you do anything abrupt it will cause him to just pull off verticle. Allow the bandit to close into your dead six. If you have to loosen the turn a bit to keep the bandit behind you. You want him to be setting up to pull the trigger.

Remember we are going in to a "luftberry" now ( a simple flat turn) and allowing the bandit to close to your six. The LAST THING you want to happen now is for the bandit to get cold feet and pull off verticle.

Our set up then was to begin an easy banking turn with nose shallow down and draw the bandit in. Begin to tighten this turn gently. Then tighten more and more until he begins to pull lead pursuit and is trying to track for guns. As the bandit begins to close to D-800 pull the turn much tighter and watch for his nose to swing out lag pursuit as the result of your tightend turn....this is the signal your looking for.

Roll level and pull up hard to verticle.....hard inside rudder and roll around in a tight barrel roll..you should see the bandit flying under you as your canopy goes upside down.

Bring the plane to level nose down again and accelerate. The bandit will have burned all his he in the bait turn. You will now keep your speed and follow. The bandit will now try to go verticle and remain on top...let him. keep your speed. DO NOT follow into a rope. Stay flat. When the bandit turns at the top, flat turn into that direction and as the bandit drops for guns you pull up EARLY.

At this point you will have to work the angles and start setting up your shots.

IF you have done #2 correctly you will have closed seperation, equalized energy and forced the bandit to get greedy for guns. You will be close enough for him to keep wanting to kill you buy pulling hard verticle reversals and YOU WILL HAVE KEPT YOUR ENERGY allowing you to maneuver and go verticle yourself when the time is right.

Offline pervert

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Re: How to evade
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2010, 10:29:17 AM »
http://www.4shared.com/file/236179788/d075eecf/eadvant.html

In this case the guy won't commit at the start he has alt and e on me on the first 2 passes he can't get guns on me because he he is too fast the angle is too tight. On the 3rd pass I offer myself up when he finally does commit I'm in a much better e state and he can't zoom up or run away.

Bottom line is your overshoot should be proportional to what your opponent is doing, you don't need to pull hard turns either unless the situation warrants it, a lot of people waste their e pulling hard evasives when that really isn't necessary to stay out of guns. It may work short term but you just end up with less and less e than your opponent and have less chance of killing him as a consequence.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 10:58:41 AM by pervert »

Offline Ghosth

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Re: How to evade
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2010, 12:44:48 PM »
IF, you can go nose to nose before he gets guns on you, in range then do so. Figure 600 to be safe.

If he's too high, or too close then Split S, watch him over your tail to see what he's going to do.
If he's higher/faster and try's to dive onto your 6 as you split S he's going to blackout.
Plus he's going to turn a bigger circle.

So first rule to getting them off your 6 is to not let them get there.

Second is up (immelman) to attack, down (split S) to escape.
If you go easy on the stick, you can zoom right back up after a split S and regain the alt you started at.


If he is diving from above, and you just do a simple break turn, chances are he can roll inside your turn, anticipate and still get a shot.

Trying to do the same to someone doing a split S is much much harder. Because 1 your going to go under his nose, make him lose sight. Second your adding to his speed, making him blackout if he trys to manuver. Most often he'll blackout before you do.

So if you take him into blackout, then make one small move he can't see, or can't follow (because of speed)
Then he's not going to be on your 6 anymore.


Offline Spikes

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Re: How to evade
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2010, 01:59:05 PM »
I use a similar tactic to fugitive.

As the bandit gets on you six about 1.5 out start a slight nose down back to him. As he gets guns on about 600yrd point your nose at his wingtip and roll with his wingline. Fugitive is right if he continues with guns on he will lose  a little bit of E. and as you roll he will pass by and come across the front of our guns giving you a snapshot.

The reason it works is as he is trying to get guns on he has to fire enough lead that you are under his nose and he can't see you. If you start your roll with the wing line you start to roll while he is blind and before he knows it you are rolling onto a lead position for a snapshot.

If the bandit has lots of E he will just go up and try again. Do the same thing over the object for me at this point is to stay out of guns and Burn his E. As you get closer to his e state you will have better position on him.

If he goes back up, as soon as he does go straight nose down slightly, as soon as he goes over the top turn back into him again. If you are a little nose down and he is at the top of his loops He is real slow. If you turn back into him, you cut of the distance so he can't build E as he has less distance to. And you are slightly nose down so you are building E. Don't turn too hard your goal is turn just hard enough to get back to him and accelerate. You can allways turn more as you get closer if you didnt judge it right.

You want full throtle and wep if you have it.

Look me up and pm me when you see me on be happy to go to DA and go over it with you. Take you as far as I can. In game ID Sonicblu.

Film your sorties and look from the other pilots perspective. This will help alot.
I am intrigued by this...but don't really understand the nose down toward him type deal...I'm sure you don't mean a split S but thats what it kind of sounds like. Do you have any example SS's of this move in action? I'm trying to get a bit better at ACM and the like. :)
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Offline Saxman

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Re: How to evade
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2010, 02:41:13 PM »
Here's what I do in this situation:

When I pick up the bandit, I go shallow nose-low and start a gentle bank into him IMMEDIATELY upon visual. I'm not trying to reverse on him at this point, but my goals are the following:

1) It keeps him out of my dead-6 blindspot. By turning into him I can better keep him in view. Additionally, turning INTO rather than away from him makes it harder for him to set up on my 6 in general.

2) It shorten up distance. If he's coming in at high speed, it gives him less time to react.

3) Although I'm in a defensive position, by turning into him I can take a degree of control of how he has to approach the fight. For him to get a shot he's either going to have to pull lead inside my turn, or as BR pointed out force him to offset. In the former case he'd have to scrub E to stay with me, whereas in the latter case I force him to settle for a snapshot rather than a clean tracking shot, giving him a lower probability to hit.

Once the icon closes to within 1500-1000 yards I make my final break:

I roll partially inverted and pull into a low Yo-Yo, about 45 degree bank should be fine. As I break back under him he's not going to be able to pursue and will have to either pull out or blow through. However I don't stop there. Once I pull through my break and my nose breaks the horizon I level my wings and go vertical. What happens next depends on my opponent's position. If he overshoots and is now below me, I roll over the top and drop on him; if he scrubbed all his E trying to follow me or stop his dive I have him, and if he keeps going I stay high and let him run. If he pulled out and is extending away to reset for another pass, I start grabbing as much altitude as I can, then when he turns around set myself up to repeat the process. I'll keep repeating this until either the bandit finally overshoots and I can reverse him, or until we've neutralized E-states.

The key is to keep your opponent in sight at all times so you can pick up his situation IMMEDIATELY after you break under him.

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Offline TonyJoey

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Re: How to evade
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2010, 06:46:49 PM »
I try to keep my speed up as fast as possible as he's diving on me. If he is coming in going 450mph or faster than your speed, all you have to do is a slight bank to avoid the pass. Immediately as he passes by, I try to level the wings and climb. The more he repeats this, the more E I build up, and the narrower the gap between our E states is. Soon you'll be on a level playing field with him.  If he starts making the turn to follow your bank, simply increase your turn to where your almost blacking out. At this point, if he's going faster than you, he'll definately be blacking out as he tries to hold his turn. Once his vision is hindered, it's quite easy to reverse the fight with a simple barrel roll onto his six. When in doubt though, pull hard down and to the right or the left to avoid his shot. Most people try flat turns to avoid, but a good shot will tear you apart. Make sure you are flying down, as this makes his speed increase even more, making the shot very difficult. Hope this helped.

 :salute
 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 06:48:52 PM by TonyJoey »

Offline Spatula

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Re: How to evade
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2010, 02:17:37 AM »
I wouldn't chop your throttle in that situation, you want to keep a hold of as much E as you can so you can use it later for following up or bugging out.

What you are trying to do is firstly, deny your attacker a easy shot/kill; secondly manoeuvre as efficiently as possible (eg do the minimum required to get the result you're after); thirdly, and by no means least important, attempt to generate a situation where you become the aggressor (if even for a short period of time - eg a brief snapshot. Or even turn the tables completely).

Ideally, you want to do something which encompasses all your tactical goals in one. One such move is the barrel-roll defence - which is out of scope of this thread.

The first, and simplest, of our tactical goals is "deny the easy shot". For someone new this is first thing they will learn. As you progress you will learn to understand and incorporate the others better. If you think about air-to-air gunnery, the attacker needs to be able to "pull lead" on his victim in order to score a hit (assuming the bogey is manoeuvring). That in itself is complex. He has to correctly judge his closure rate, the speed and angle the bogey is at, and hope they continue to hold those variables. If they vary one of them the attackers solution will fail without adjustment (assuming spray and get lucky canon kills don't ruin your day). So you need to be unpredictable, and more than that to get best results you need to be able to manoeuvre when they cannot actually see you.

The situation you describe leads to a very high closure rate and a large speed differential. This means the attacker will have to pull extreme G loads to pull the requisite lead and get a solution. Often you will be well under his nose, and/or they will be riding the black-out tunnel, so they will have very limited ability to accurately track and anticipate where you're going to be. However, they can make an educated guess as to where you will be at firing time, aim there, fire, and if you haven't varied your trajectory, you may well get clobbered. So, the key is to be unpredictable, and make your move when they have a hard time adjusting their solution.

I suggest you do some reading on air-to-air gunnery at simhq, and understand the finer points of air-to-air gunnery, and that will give you valuable insights on how to foil those attacks.
http://www.simhq.com/_air/acc_library.html

The simplest and, IMO, the best way is to commence a flat low-G break turn (flat, or slightly diving) about 1.5 out, this makes it look like an easy shot to your attacker - and 99% of the time they will take the bait. when they get to about 1k-900 start progressively tightening up the break turn, stay flat and predictable. Notice now they will be almost in-plane with you (your wing angles relative to the ground are identical) and they are ready to fire. At about 600 out, you will more than likely will already be under the bogeys nose and he wont see what you're about to do - all in one smooth move, level out a little more (roll closer to level by 20-50 degrees) and pull hard Gs (you will be doing a climbing turn now) to get out of plane and well under the bandits nose and out of their bullet stream. They will now overshoot your wingline. Job done.

What happens next is the fun bit, but out of scope for this conversation ;)

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Offline FireDrgn

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Re: How to evade
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2010, 10:34:27 AM »
Maybe some one can post  a link to Murdr's web sight.  He has very good films with instruction. They will give you a visual idea of what your doing.  LOOk for  the video titled  "WHY MERGE"  If i can find it i wll edit my post .

I found it. 

http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/hpsfiles.zip


GL  <S>
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 10:40:48 AM by FireDrgn »
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Offline Eagleclaw

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Re: How to evade
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2010, 07:17:57 PM »
I appreciate it loads mates, ty ty
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