109F4 I/JG52/ByNrRaVeN

[FTJR]

That finish looks better to my eyes Raven, although you obviously know way more than me about LW paint. I should have realised that first photo was colourised.

How would one tell?

[Krusty]

I think those colors are better. However, I'm not totally sure the photo is "colorized" after the fact.



One guy says (and on inspection, he might be correct) that it looks like the brown/green were heavily mottled, and the squiggles were applied on top independently of the brown/green demarcation lines.

When you think about it, this makes sense. There were a few other paint schemes where they applied squiggles on top of an existing camo scheme, such as a MTO 109G-2 with green/brown camo, and some more squiggles on an all-sandgelb 109. There is precedent for "random squiggle application" 

Slightly larger shot of the first pic:



I don't think it's recolored, as much as it's just an old photo with some color bleeding and a bit of color shifting.

EDIT: It almost looks like there's a 50% white / 50% "black" band at the base of the spinner, not part of the fuselage. Almost looks like there was a spinner pattern there, underneath the existing one? Or some other pattern.

[Nr_RaVeN]

I think those colors are better. However, I'm not totally sure the photo is "colorized" after the fact.
I don't think it's recolored, as much as it's just an old photo with some color bleeding and a bit of color shifting.

Agreed
Probably an old photo often those old photos were color retouched or  rephotographed with a view camera 4x5 film then color retouched . well never know for sure but the colors are defiantly not dead on.
 With out question the squiggles were added after the fact just as The MTO G2 ,They differ from the MTO G2 as those were contiguous but idea is the same.

Question is what was the original scheme? It was working in the sea. was it originally a brown grey or a brow green scheme.
Its been so overpainted its almost impossible to tell.

Its going to have to be an educated guess. as i can't find the Serial # of  that AC.

 Kusty any info in the book you have so I can research it's background further. IE were it was before. What book did you use?

 
That photo of the guy on the wing is great.
All I had to go on was the first photo and the silly model for the wing pattern. After looking at the wing pattern looks like I'm going to re work it to the random squiggles.

Thanks Kusty very helpful.
 Its great to have all this input from everone.
It makes it a team effort.

[Krusty]

Frakking forum ate a post I was typing for 30 minutes... 

EDIT: Let's try again...

If I'm brief it's because I don't want to retype EVERYTHING I just did, so if I'm unclear please let me know.

Sorry, no book on my end. I found that with a mere 2 minutes searching online the other day. What luck!

Hyperscale decal review:
http://www.hyperscale.com/2008/reviews/decals/iliad48017reviewse_1.htm

He doesn't say whether the photos come with the decals (would be worth it, if they did!) or if he pulled his own resources for the sake of review/comparison.

However, I don't think the color issue is as bad as you think. You can clearly tell there are color demarcations at work. You can then limit the color options to exsting RLM colors and LW precedents.

I disagree that there could be multiple configurations based on long-term overpainting. The 109F-2 was a short-term production model with limited service time. The 109F-4 replaced it very quickly. It would not have been around long enough to acquire long-term overpainting history, like end-of-war 190s (for example).

Instead, I think that like the multi-color MTO 109F/Gs, and like the early JG54 190As, the color scheme was mostly intentional and applied (or overpainted) at one period in time. The squiggles may or may not have come later, I'm not sure.

I think you can use it for a lot, just cannot use it for a color sample. Looking at the photo you can see something green, and something brownish/purplish tinted. I think the green is definitely a green. I think it would be a heavy over-painting of the other colors, as found on a number of MTO 190s and 109s.

As for the other color, I'm going to take another track. I am going to propose it is not brown, nor is it pruplish. I'm going to suggest it was a dark gray. I'm going to say the reddish tint doesn't look right, and rather resembles color bleedout, as if the photo aged and the red pigment came through, giving it a tint/shade that was not originally there, or that the early color photography light-sensitive film crystals were poorly made (common at the time, color photos were a new thing).

Now, bear with me! I had 2 trains of thought as to the underlying color...

A number of LW planes that flew over the wavetops had a grayish color. The Ar196, for example, used some gray shades for better over-water camouflague. Semi-recently I was doing a lot of research regarding the colors on the Ar196 (gray vs green debate). After probably a couple of months of looking and reading online debates (there is no debate green was used, the debate was whether the grays were all wrongly-identified greens!) I came to the conclusion, with the aid of a decent color WW2 photo, that grays were used.

So JG52 came to the same conclusion and found similar paints to blend in with the water, then over-painted that with green all over the upper surfaces.

OR

JG52 is using the standard 109F gray/gray uppers camo... Or some variation thereof. The dark gray found on the upper surfaces of 109Fs also has an inherrent purplish tint. Over time this could bleed out a bit brownish or redish on poor quality film. The green is oversprayed so excessively (leaving gaps and shades, mind you) that the gray/gray demarcations go away, leaving only mostly gray/green patterns. JG54 had a similar white distemper paint scheme, albeit with white instead of green. The so-called "cow" pattern (IMO wrongly so, it was not black spots, it was the 2-tone gray camo underneath showing through). Here we have a dark color that helps blend in with the water, but the green breaks it up like the waves might look from a distance. The white squiggles came afterwards (wild guess on my part!) after they looked at it and said "it needs a little something more."


It could be either pattern. I'm going to suggest perhaps the second option is more likely, just for debate's sake. The problem with this is the low camo line on the fuselage sides. Not without precedent (see JG54 green camo lines, see later desert 109s with green sprayed all down the sides), but definitely requiring thought as to how the gray/gray pattern would extend underneath the green over-painting.


Here's a picture of a model just as example of what I mean when I say the 109F-2 in question has green overpainting:
http://hsfeatures.com/features04/images/Bf109G2_ICR5.jpg

A model just as an example of the gray used on Ar196s:
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1312/4776356/9915355/227487738.jpg
The forum with a debate on the colors here:
http://airfixtributeforum.myfastforum.org/ftopic9455-0-asc-20.php

How I chose to do my Ar196 after some careful thought:
http://www.nakatomitower.com/models/airfix196/ar196_painted_unmasked1a.jpg
I cannot find the color photo online, but have saved it on my other computer.

This is probably a little disjointed, sorry. I was trying to re-create my thoughts on the matter and I KNOW I left out a chunk in the middle because I couldn't remember how I had typed it up.



[EDIT 2:] Forgive my terms when I say "gray/gray" etc... Working here, and can't look up RLM numbers or anything.
It all may very well be a winerot type of shade, or perhaps a violetbrun or some combination of brownish color, but I present the above ideas in the spirit of "getting it right" and trust the end result will be well informed, regardless of how it is done.

[Nr_RaVeN]

Lots of good stuff there Krusty Thanks For taking the time

The photo was taken in 1941 at a base on Hollands coastal North sea.
 It sure looks like Violet brown to be grey original and bleed out that bad in the photo makes it a tough call.. yet it makes sense though, if they took an already painted ac and modified the camo, they would start with a standard scheme.
  I don't know of any violet browns being used then there. There were lots of grey shades and Grey green . It's so brown, Its hard to imagine the color got that far off. If it did then were back to ,what looks green is really grey.
 Perhaps there was some Violet brow kicking around the paint shop who knows its a tough call on this bird ,so much up in the air.
 Its all speculation and educated guess work.
I'm going to have to chew on this a bit. I may do a few variations. Theres defiantly some room here, it could go in several directions.
Thanks RaVe

[Krusty]

Keep in mind that even a simple "gray" can range from the brown-tints to the red-tints... The particular gray in question could be on the red end of the spectrum, like RLM75 kind of has a tint to it.

Then any red pigment bleeding on the film/photo has less to bleed before it exaggerates things.


Also, it's quite possible to have specific colors bleed or leech out without the others doing the same. You can see this on some photos where the black and the white were not "stopped" properly, and kept developing after the rest of the photo, expanding and spreading just those pigments. It may be that the one color shifted more than the rest, so green is still green, but purple-red is exaggerated.

Like you said, worth mulling over.

[Nr_RaVeN]

 Been reading up allot today, here's what I have so far.
After drilling down a bit further, the green guys may have a case here. I will have the answers when the new book comes in.
 In June 1941 RML issued an order that officially approved the change over to a new day fighter scheme incorporating RML 74 and 75 over 76, soon afterward issuing a painting guide that applied to the the 109F.
It specified colors 74 and 75 were to be applied to the upper surfaces approximately in equal parts using the type 5 splinter pattern but with a soft demarcation I.E. no masking.
While the sides of the fuselage fin and ruder and all under surfaces were to be finished in RML 76.
 Fuselage molting was to be applied softly in equal amounts of  02,70, and 74(a dark green).
  No two planes were the same between June and Nov 1941 wile this change was being implemented, there was no masking it was all free hand.
The differences and variations were based on the skill and taste of the painter and that was permissible.
No suprise to see that this Bird surfaced.

so now for the guess work scenarios.

If the painter painted over the RML 74 and 75 uppers with squiggly lines in either RML 76 or white or even 02 they would not have much contrast.
 In the photo there is allot of contrast between the squiggles and the base paint.
 I tested this and on the skin.. the squiggles get lost in the RML 75. cant be that combo in the photo.

 But if the painter painted over the original upper of  75(the lighter grey) with some of the 70 Schwarzgrün(that's kind of a drk green like seen in the photo) and perhaps fogged in the  RML 74 a bit and used either the 02, white ,or 76 for the squiggles now we end up with the contrast that we see in the photos as well as a decent effective sea camo.
if that's what happend then that photo is wayyy off the chart.

 The other scenario is that there was some  Luftwaffe RML maritime camouflage being used. After all it was a coastal field. Those colors started to be used in 1938.
If they used or had on hand RML maritime camouflage of 72 and 73 both greens...  (73 almost a Brown green).... we are getting much closer to the photo and still a good sea camo.
The Brown look in the photo could be the RML 73, this combo with either 76 or 02 or even RML 75 or white for the squiggles is closer.
It would still put the photo off but not nearly as much as the first hunch.

 Here's another thought.
The Paint shop actually painted over the Plane with (Dunkelbraun RML 61) that color is almost exactly like the brown in the Photos. It was used starting in 1938 as well. That along with the RML maritime camouflage of 72 and 73 or the 70 and using either 02 76 withe or 75 as the squiggles... gets us really close to the photo. Only catch is that if its sea camo, brown doesn't works so well.

 Here's the kicker......The images are taken at Katwijk, Holland, 1941, before the unit got involved in operation Barbarossa. So this may have been a repaint for that terrain.

Anybodies guess as to what is going on there.

New angel Bad scan Ill post good scans when I get the new book.





RaVe

[Fencer51]

You guys are really over analyzing this.  It is commendable, but what it boils down to is that this is a Luftwaffe plane, and it will end up a burning pile of twisted aluminum on the ground. 

Cool skin NR_Raven.

[lyric1]

You guys are really over analyzing this.  It is commendable, but what it boils down to is that this is a Luftwaffe plane, and it will end up a burning pile of twisted aluminum on the ground. 

Cool skin NR_Raven.

It will be in good company with the Beaufighters huh? 

[Nr_RaVeN]

You guys are really over analyzing this.  It is commendable, but what it boils down to is that this is a Luftwaffe plane, and it will end up a burning pile of twisted aluminum on the ground. 

Cool skin NR_Raven.

Only when I fly it... 

[Krusty]

That may be so Fencer, but just ask Guppy: It's all about looking GOOD while you fall from the sky in pieces!