Author Topic: Strange feelings with DORAs turning ability  (Read 1385 times)

Offline Yeager

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Strange feelings with DORAs turning ability
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2001, 10:25:00 AM »
Ive been engaged in high speed low alt turnfights with P51Bs and Ds against the doras and those 190D FMs can really pull back on the stick for amazing HO shots.  I dont really put much faith in the physics modeling anymore.  Its just a computer game really.........guess it seems pretty decent though for the most part.

Also seen LA7s do some amazing stuff, like pull up from a 45 degree frontal approach 5k below and get a six position, chase me and kill me in a fully steamed 51 at 23k.

Its funny really......hehe he he..........hehe

Y

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Offline Lephturn

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Strange feelings with DORAs turning ability
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2001, 11:06:00 AM »
Hey Glunz,

Folks give the D9 pilots a hard time for two readons.  1.  Many D9 pilots run when they have an advantage since they don't know how to exploit the E fight properly.  2.  They do it to get the bastiges pissed so they'll turn.    I know that's why I give 'em watermelon on channel 1, it's because I want them to turn around so I can have a shot at 'em.  

The D9 is one of the best BnZ fighters in the game, and a credible E fighter as well.  It also has a clear advantage over most other planes in the game in terms of speed.  Try flying a Jug for a while if you want a real challeng.  

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Glunz

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Strange feelings with DORAs turning ability
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2001, 11:29:00 AM »
Agreed, Lephturn, Jug is a challenge. But 190A-8 is even greater. After A-8, Dora is like a vacation  

Offline R4M

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Strange feelings with DORAs turning ability
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2001, 11:37:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Lephturn:
The D9 is one of the best BnZ fighters in the game, and a credible E fighter as well.  It also has a clear advantage over most other planes in the game in terms of speed.  Try flying a Jug for a while if you want a real challeng.    


Last time I gave it a try I got a 28-5 K/D...and one of those deaths was because the supergun on a M3  

On the Dora Issue. Dora-P47 turnfite. Use your acceleration over the P47. That means gradually starting to use the vertical plane on your turns, after both planes have lost all their E (anyway, and as a rule of thumb,dont flat turn, ALWAYS keep a vertical component). In the end, what is a close fight would end with the P47 turning flat while the dora is barrel rolling. In this situation the Dora has the E advantage and can pull some lead to destroy the Jug, or disengage at will.

I used this a lot against the P51s, in a Fw190A5, back in the 1.04. First 2-3 turns bait him to bleed all his E. Then gradually start using the vertical to keep your surplus E income in the "E bank". The P51 simply can't follow such a gradual move.

Of course, takes time and bit of skill not to let the enemy a shoot. THis is VERY dangerous if you misread the bandit's E state.

If the P47 flat turns the Dora will get a shot sooner or later (more sooner than later), if it uses vertical component. Simple.

On the turning issue, the D9 is a Fw190: that means, initial turnrate is awesome even while E-bleeding is high. In fact E-bleeding is a good thing in hi-speed turns, you know why?...

You decelerate faster,so you turn tighter. If the enemy plane is a good E-retainer, you can actually turn inside it if the speeds involved are high enough (typical cheater call I've taken "NO WAY YOUR 190 CAN TURN INSIDE MY SPITFIRE!!". Typical answer: "yes at 400 IAS"   ).

Never take a dora under 200mph IAS in a close fight. Never. Use the vertical, barrel rolls, rolling scissors. Whatever. But DONT let that plane under 200mph because its dead. Over that speed you can maniobrate quite nicely. Under that speed your left wing will drop easily in about any non-gentle move, making you lose time and more than possibly the fight.

Of course some stupid jocks (like me), like to ride the stall horn back to 120mph IAS.

That is why I only have a 2-1 K/D on the Dora  .

[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 03-28-2001).]

Offline Raubvogel

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Strange feelings with DORAs turning ability
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2001, 01:43:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by AKSeaWulfe:
 From Tour 12:
AKSWulfe has 74 kills and has been killed 17 times in the fw190A-5.
Tour 10:
AKSWulfe has 51 kills and has been killed 29 times in the fw190A-5.
Tour 9:
AKSWulfe has 197 kills and has been killed 51 times in the fw190A-5.
Tour 7:
AKSWulfe has 115 kills and has been killed 18 times in the fw190A-5.
EDIT
Tour 6:
AKSWulfe has 168 kills and has been killed 25 times in the fw190A-5.


Ssssooo, you can hardly call me inexperienced in the 190 series or even a bad 190 pilot.

Simple fact of the matter is, the plane and the guns are not broke. You have to fly it appropriately. Just because *SOME* players are having problems with the guns, does not equate to the guns being broke. I'm willing to bet that they are expecting the D9 to aim like the A5.


I like how you and DejaVu always seem to think posting your stats will prove something. I guess you're the gold standard for aircraft performance?

I think the Dora is modeled well in flight characteristics. Gunnery seems off. Trying to find some ballistic info on MG151. Doesn't seem that they should drop as much as they do  under 500m.


[This message has been edited by Raubvogel (edited 03-28-2001).]

AKSeaWulfe

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Strange feelings with DORAs turning ability
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2001, 02:17:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Raubvogel:
 I like how you and DejaVu always seem to think posting your stats will prove something. I guess you're the gold standard for aircraft performance?

And your screenshot was a whole lot better.....  
-SW



[This message has been edited by AKSeaWulfe (edited 03-28-2001).]

Sturm

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Strange feelings with DORAs turning ability
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2001, 02:21:00 PM »
Sorry but the D-9 does not feel right to me, from what I have read and from what I see when I fly it the 2 do not match up.  The 151 was a devastating 20mm cannon, in here, it is a pin salamander.  I feel we should get the MG 151/15 High ROF High velocity and a nice devastating round.  We need this gun, if not in the wings at least an option for gun pods.  I know you will spout back where is your data to confirm its use in such and such and such and such.  Or whether it was used with this ammo mainly or did its creator have an affair.  No matter how we look at it, we cannot model things 100% accurately, add prototypes in here, that flew and did see combat.  I am all for it, make the game a real challenge, most in here fly the planes do to facination with a certain countries plane set or a particular model.  Envisioning and possibly taking on a roll in a less dangerous environment the real pilots had to fly in.  Have you ever heard radio chatter where you here 1 guy in the tower giving the other clearance to land and at what runway and stuff like that?  These were grown men, acting out what it was like.  Adding a new role to the game, some see it as a furball to get more kills or pad stats, for me it is being able to fly luftwaffe AC.  I wold love to find a sim that would add Jets or add the what if planes or early model what if planes.  You can't fault some for this, nor can I fault anyone who wants a Mk XIV spitfire, unless it is for the sole purpose of making it easier to get more kills.  I understnad why people onlly fly certain planes what I dont like is seeing all their kills in the best planes.  What is the challenge?  If I get shot down by one of those early war birds damn right I will give them a GK!!  So whatever reason you are here flying, I have shared with you what I look for, if we get the planes great, but if they don't live up to expectations well sometimes you feel slighted.  As to the reason you sometimes see heated posts.  In all honesty if they added the HE-219 or ME-410 you better believe that would be hte only plane I flew no matter how crappy they were.  Only time I have ever been able to fly one was in EAW, and SWOTL!!  Take a minute and assess why you fly this game, and then take another one and think of why others fly.  Sometimes our goals are different, as gamers we conquer everything and sims will get boring sometimes to quick, were the parent company cannot react quickly enough to keep the customers happy.  We have to keep ideas fresh for them and not limit it to the old standard, step above that and say lets do something different, somethng no one else ever has before and see where it goes.  Yikes this is rather long sorry for this Naudet, in 4 words I agree with you!  

Salute    

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Offline Raubvogel

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Strange feelings with DORAs turning ability
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2001, 02:26:00 PM »
 edit:not worth my time.

[This message has been edited by Raubvogel (edited 03-28-2001).]

AKSeaWulfe

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Strange feelings with DORAs turning ability
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2001, 03:19:00 PM »
Hehehehehe    
hehehehehe
-SW

Offline Buzzbait

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Strange feelings with DORAs turning ability
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2001, 04:00:00 PM »
S!

Here is an analysis of the 190 by an American Ace.  He is talking about the 190A, but many of the comments re. fighting the aircraft are applicable to the 190D.  His tech figures are for the 190A3

>>>>>>>>>

The Best of the Breed
Airpower, July, 1976 Vol. 6 No. 4
by Col. "Kit" Carson

Part 2 (continued)

General Characteristics

FW-190A

A superb airplane, every inch a fighter. It could do a half roll at cruising speed in one second. Taking this in conjunction with the airplane's high top speed and rate of climb one expected its pilots to exploit its high speed qualities to the fullest without staying in there to "mix it up" in a low speed, flaps down full throttle, gut wrenching dog fight.

They did. The 190 pilots had a good airplane and some good advice. Nearly all of my encounters with the 190 were at high speeds. On at least two occasions when I met them, in my Mustang started porpoising, which means I was into compressibility, probably around 550 mph. I don't know what my air speed indicator was reading, I wasn't watching it.

On another occasion, I jumped one directly over the city of Paris and fired all my ammo, but he was only smoking heavily after a long chase over the town. Assuming I was getting 10 percent hits, that airplane must have had 200 holes in it. It was a rugged machine.

   Mean weight         8580
   Engine            BMW 801D
   Horsepower         1600
   Power loading, lbs./HP      5.36
   Wing loading, lbs./sq.ft.      41.7
   Prop diameter, ft.         10.86
   Wing Geometry
   Area, sq.ft.         205
   Span, ft.            34.5
   Mean chord, ft.         5.95
   Aspect Ratio         5.8
   Dihedral, degrees         5
   Sweepback, degrees      5.5
   Root chord, ft.         7.45
   Tip chord, ft.         4.05
   Thickness Ratio, percent      12
   Maximum thickness location   Between 25 and 30 percent
   Top speed, mph         408/20,600 ft.

Engine and Propeller

The BMW 801D was a 14 cylinder, twin row radial with direct fuel injection. A 10.9 foot diameter, 3-bladed VDM prop was used and was provided with hand lever or automatic pitch control. The 801D radial air cooled engine first appeared on the Dornier 217 and the Fw-190. Its most novel feature was the oil cooler system which was a number of finned tubes shaped into a ring of tubes a little larger in diameter than the cooling fan. This ring was fitted into the rounded front portion of the cowling just aft of the fan.

I don't think this was a good idea. For example, my principal aiming point was always the forward portion of an enemy ship; the engine, cockpit, wing root section. If you get any hits at all, even only a few, you're bound to put one or two slugs into the engine compartment. Having a couple of bullets riccochet off the engine block and tear up some ignition harness is not too bad at all, at least not fatal. But to have all those thin-walled oil cooling tubes ahead of the engine is bad news. Any hits or riccochets in the engine section are bound to puncture the oil tubes. Then the whole engine is immersed in oil spray, and sometimes it would flash over into a fire. All of the 12 Focke-Wulfs that I shot down sent off a trail of dense, boiling oil smoke heavy enough to fog up my gun camera lens and windshield if I were so close.

Wings and Controls

Again, as in the case of the Me-109, no trim tabs adjustable in flight from the cockpit were provided for the aileron and rudder. European designers seem to have acquired the notion that this was a nuisance or unnecessary. Not at all; when going into a dive, it's very easy for the pilot to reach down with his left hand and flick in a couple of half turns of rudder trim. It's not only desireable but necessary to eliminate side slip for good gunnery. The Fw-190, however, did have electric trim tabs for the elevators.

Performance Evaluation

The Fw-190's handling qualities were generally excellent. The most impressive feature was the aileron control at high speeds. Stick force per "g" was about 9 pounds up to 300 mph rising to 12 pounds at 400 mph as compared to over 20 pounds for the Me-109.

High speed stalls under "g" load were a little vicious and could be a fatal handicap in combat. If the airplane was pulled in tight and stalled at high speed at 2 "gs"  or more with the power on, turning right or left, the left wing would drop violently without warning and the airplane would flick onto its back from a left turn. I scored against a 190 under such circumstances. The message was clear, don't stall it. Our own Bell Aircobra P-39 would do the same thing.

Fighting Qualities

Excellent high speed, with exceptional maneuverability at those speeds. Range and endurance were markedly improved over the 109. The Focke-Wulf would go 3 hours plus. Visibility with the full view canopy was superb, as it was in the Mustang.

Summary

Bad points:
   (1) Oil cooling tubes at the front of the engines was a poor choice of location. A puncture         due to combat damage, or to simple failure covered the engine section with an oil            spray.
   (2) Lack of aileron and rudder trim controls in the cockpit.
   (3) Vicious high speed snap rolls if stalled under significant "g" load.
   (4) Poor turning radius due to high wing loading.

Good points:

Everything else was good. In the hands of a competent pilot the 190 was a formidable opponent. The landing approach speed was high and this shakes some pilots up a bit, but I don't think it's anything it's anything to complain about.

End of "Best of the Breed" Part II to be continued....(Ju88 and Me110)

Offline Buzzbait

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Strange feelings with DORAs turning ability
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2001, 04:02:00 PM »
S!

Just noticed his figures for wing area are wrong.  Should be 197 Sq. ft.

I have seen these figures for wing area on some other U.S. tests and I think it relates to a different standard of measurement.

Offline Naudet

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Strange feelings with DORAs turning ability
« Reply #41 on: March 29, 2001, 12:45:00 AM »
Ok i will try to use all good advice given in this post, when i fly the next time.

And dont expect me to turn aaround when someone calls out "DoRun", i will ignore everyything like this and say to myself "u do the right thing"  

Offline Mathman

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Strange feelings with DORAs turning ability
« Reply #42 on: March 29, 2001, 02:09:00 AM »
I have pretty much flown the Dora exclusively since it was introduced.  To me, its guns suck.  Whether or not this is right or wrong, I don't know.  I am not an expert by anyone's definition on German aircraft guns.  Then again, they are working for me.  I will say this though, compared to the 50's and Hispanozookas, the guns on the Dora leave a lot to be desired with respect to ballistics.

As for turn fighting the Dora, I do it quite a bit, and as a result, I die quite a bit.  The main reason that I won't turn fight in it like I do the hog, is the crappy snapshot properties of the guns/nose/alignment of the stars/whatever that the plane seems to have.  All that being said, I find myself starting to fly and fight in it much smarter than I ever did in any plane previously.  I gain much more alt before entering a fight.  I keep my speed up.  I disengage (run for the cynics out there  ) when I lose the advantage (well, I try too, most of the time).  I have reached a point where there is not a single plane that I won't engage (unlike when I was flying the D Hog and Cat and would try and run from Nikis).

Oh well, I started to ramble, time to stop  

-math


Offline juzz

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Strange feelings with DORAs turning ability
« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2001, 05:30:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Buzzbait:
S!

Just noticed his figures for wing area are wrong.  Should be 197 Sq. ft.

I have seen these figures for wing area on some other U.S. tests and I think it relates to a different standard of measurement.

When measuring wing area; you can take the planform area of the wing only, or you can also include the (plan)area of fuselage "in between" the wings.

If you examine a plane like the F-15 you see an example of how this could be a significant matter.

Offline Vermillion

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Strange feelings with DORAs turning ability
« Reply #44 on: March 29, 2001, 07:36:00 AM »
Guys, there are ways to use fighters like the Dora, that does NOT mean making 5 gun passes on a much lower enemy and then running away when you get down to "only" a 2k alt advantage. Or taking a HO pass then running for the hills.

Unfortunately this is the way that alot of people are fighting the Dora and this is whats giving it a bad name in the arena.

And no, I'm not talking about turnfighting it. You can get in the fight, and stay in the fight for quite some time before you have to turn and run.

Dora pilots do not have to be "Hunstangs" or "DoRuns". They just need to learn how.



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