Flaps in a fight

[JunkyII]

Me and Grizz had a great fight last night in the DA.....G14 vs F6F. It shouldnt have lasted that long but I guess I got lucky and hit his 30

But afterwards Grizz asked me a question about when I was using my flaps. I was retracting them when my nose was down(to gain E I think) then putting them out when my nose was above the horizon. He said he was doing the opposite of that. Dropping flaps when his nose was down to cut that corner a bit better, then retracting them to gain more alt.

The fight wasnt going anywhere, my fingers ended up getting tired and I tried to do something but yea it didnt work. Which is correct? Do different planes require different flap tactics to gain an advantage? The 2 aircraft do have completely different types of fighting styles to them...

[Krusty]

I'd say it depends entirely on E-state and what you want to do. If your nose is "up" it doesn't necessarily mean "pop flaps" -- too many factors, including the increased drag of going uphill with flaps down.

Then again, I'm no "flap expert"...

Personally I think this game relies too much on flaps, and over-models them to a large degree.

[Ardy123]

JunkyII your a better stick than me but what I do is the following...

IF I need to turn sharp, I drop flaps.

If I need to preserve 'e' I pull in flaps.

So, in a rolling scissors, on the way down I begin to drop my flaps so that they are deployed when I need to turn back up again. Then once my nose is pointed up, I pull them in again.

Also, at the top, when doing a power on stall and the nose drops, flaps will make your nose less vertical ( as much as 30 degrees), so if you want to tighten up your rolling scissors, pull in flaps at the top, or at least I do.. to maximize the 'egg' shape.

[Ack-Ack]

Depends on the fight.  If it's a flat turning fight, deploy flaps when needed to shorten the turn and then retract them as soon as you don't need them anymore to preserve energy.  In a vertical fight, flaps down going up and as you're going over the top and then flaps up as you're going down to regain your E.  One thing you have to keep in mind is that it isn't always necessary to drop flaps to full or to fully raise them either.  There are some vertical fights where dropping a few notches of flaps as you're going up and over maybe raising them a notch or two as you're coming back down and not fully retracting them.  High Yo-Yo fights is an example.  Basically, it depends on the situation at hand.


ack-ack

[Wreked]

Sometimes when i deploy flaps to "get over the top" in my 190 I'll start down towards the vertical - increasing speed - and going to put my flaps up again only to find they have gone up already - (automatically??) - as I gained speed  - anyone else had this happen? ......strange....

....as I reached the max deployment speed and pass it i had assumed there would be some sort of warning sound after which your flaps would be damaged if you did not bring them up....

....cheers eh!

[grizz441]

In a vertical fight, flaps down going up and as you're going over the top and then flaps up as you're going down to regain your E.

The sequence I use is something like... as I get close to the apex of vert, I put my flaps up and as I'm coming back nose down, just as I am getting my speed back, I deploy them to help get my nose back up again. 

[JunkyII]

Ive always figured im gunna turn better with more notchs of flaps out.....seems i need to work on it a bit to preserve my E in fights

[Ack-Ack]

Ive always figured im gunna turn better with more notchs of flaps out.....seems i need to work on it a bit to preserve my E in fights

Even in planes like the P-38 that are flap dependent, it's not always the best to deploy more than what you need for the situation at hand.  I've seen some guys that I've fought against where immediately as they start turning, it's full flaps and that's the worst thing to do depending on the situation.  Usually, I'm deploying 2-3 notches in a normal turn fight but I'm retracting them immediately as I no longer need them so I don't burn energy needlessly.  Nor do I retract the flaps all the way immediately either, if I'm in a turn fight and I've got two notches already deployed and I need a 3rd, I'll lower it one more and as soon as I don't need the 3rd notch, I'll retract it and maintain 2 notches deployed and then raise the flaps as necessary or deploy them again.

If you ever see any of my films where I'm using flaps, you'll see the flaps almost in constant motion, especially if it's a vertical angles fight.  That is also usually the only kind of fights were I will deploy more than 3 notches, frequently dancing between full flaps and 3/4s, especially around the stall.


ack-ack

[TequilaChaser]

Ack-Ack gave a great reply, it is all dependent on the situation which is forever changing dynamically.....

here is a Excellent Post by Badboy

Don't Get In a Flap
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,271266.0.html

Grizz seems to possibly be controlling his speed to be able to use(lower) the flaps while going down building speed yet still able to deploy them to bring his nose UP..... if it works for ya then it works...... but no one has mentioned exactly how many notches of flaps, whether it is just 1 notch, 2 or more notches, or all notches out / in etc...... or at what speeds these vertical  up/down manuevering is happening at.....

Ardy like to see film of one of your "Rolling Scissors pulling in flaps to get over the top" moves that just don't seem right


Krusty, since these latest few patches , my personal opinion of course, the wonder Flaps , are not so wonderful anymore......... P40, P51, F6f & F4U's seem to have lost a lil bit of umphh..... in the Flap Useage

edit: Ack-Ack posted another Good reply while I was typing  


hope this helps.....

[grizz441]

I'm not an expert when it comes to flaps, and I under value its importance probably.  I try to do what feels right based off if I want to be picking up speed or cutting speed/angles.

[Ardy123]

Ardy like to see film of one of your "Rolling Scissors pulling in flaps to get over the top" moves that just don't seem right

I don't have a fight on film but I went into the TA and did two stall tests that hopefully exemplify what I'm talking about. In the video the first time I do a stall with no flaps, the second time with flaps. You will notice that the second time, the plane recovers with the nose pointed down at about a 45 degree angle, instead of the nose being at a 90 degree angle.

If this was a scissors fight where I'm trying to bleed the other guy out of e by making each vertical turn slightly larger than the last, while also forcing or preventing an overshoot, I want the 'top' part of the scissors to be as tight as possible and the downward and upward parts of the rolling scissors to be a steep as possible to reduce my 'forward' motion as much as possible (aka the vector that the barrel roll is around). Also, by not using flaps at the top, I have less drag going up, so I am able to climb just a little bit longer than if I had my flaps deployed.

If I were to have my flaps out at the top in this kind of fight, I would have to correct for the nose dropping at a 45 degree angle by pushing my stick down, making my motions less smooth.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/jmdmt0uftom/test_example.ahf

Also, as a side note, you don't always have to do a barrel roll in a scissors, as Sunsfan & Grizz have pointed out in another posts, there are several other moves that can be done such as a hammer head in the opposite direction of the forward vector of the scissors or a move some call the 'cobra' where you point your nose straight up and hold it there, and unlike my films, you make the plane stall while keeping the wings from rolling. This can be done by giving rudder (and tons of practice) to keep one wing tip from stalling before the other wing tip.

[bozon]

All this messing with flaps is more psychological than anything else. Research show that exactly 96.56% of the fights you deployed flaps in and won, you would have won without touching the flaps at all. Another 3.41% you would have won with just putting out the flaps and not retracting them until the fight was over. The final 0.03% are uncertain.

I switch fuel tanks during the fight instead: when I dive I use the main tank and when climbing I use the aux. Since in a P47 the aux tank is farther back, it seem to improve the fuel flow.

Seriously, if you pull on the stick, the plane buffets and you need to hang in there for just a little longer, pull out flaps. Otherwise don't touch them. Waste you brain power and attention on actual ACM, SA and tactics. This is all there is to it.

[Ack-Ack]

....as I reached the max deployment speed and pass it i had assumed there would be some sort of warning sound after which your flaps would be damaged if you did not bring them up....

Unfortunately no, we instead of the hand holding auto-retracting flap system that's never going to be changed.


ack-ack

[JunkyII]

All this messing with flaps is more psychological than anything else. Research show that exactly 96.56% of the fights you deployed flaps in and won, you would have won without touching the flaps at all. Another 3.41% you would have won with just putting out the flaps and not retracting them until the fight was over. The final 0.03% are uncertain.

I switch fuel tanks during the fight instead: when I dive I use the main tank and when climbing I use the aux. Since in a P47 the aux tank is farther back, it seem to improve the fuel flow.

Seriously, if you pull on the stick, the plane buffets and you need to hang in there for just a little longer, pull out flaps. Otherwise don't touch them. Waste you brain power and attention on actual ACM, SA and tactics. This is all there is to it.

Sorry but where are you getting these numbers...you sound too sure.

[L0nGb0w]

i do the same thing junky does, pull em in when goin down, pop em out to get my nose over the top and pointed back down quickly... guess I never really learned which is right