Question on the Tiger's armor

[Lusche]

serenity, look at the date you took that quote from   and also to add to this. it seems that tigers only get killed by the T-34/76 and /85 and the M4A3/76 and /75 if its less than 2500 yards. i have never been killed by any of these at a longer distance.

"Less than 2500 yards"

In WW2, 2500 as a rather extremely long combat distance.


Remember or little engagement today? Your M4A3 with the 75mm M3 cannon was able to penetrate my Tiger's frontal armor easily with a single shot at 487yds.
Now according to http://gva.freeweb.hu/weapons/usa_guns5.html the armor penetration of that gun firing AP is 76mm... the Tiger has 100mm of armor there.

But all Sherman's turrets are way more difficult to destroy in AH, even for a Tiger (I hit your turret 2 times at 1k without) any effect.


And this effect doesn't work against me only. When I'm facing an enemy Tiger I always aim for the turret face, because it's quite easy to penetrate...

[RTHolmes]

... strange thing is I can fire an entire load of APs from the M4s 75mm offline at the tigers frontal armour at 100yd and get nothing at all ...

[Lusche]

I'm just waiting impatiently for H2H coming back, so I can really do some extensive testing with all GVs.

[Lusche]

... strange thing is I can fire an entire load of APs from the M4s 75mm offline at the tigers frontal armour at 100yd and get nothing at all ...

I can... 300yds, 75mm AP. Two hits to the turret - first one get's it smoking, second one blows it up.

[321BAR]

"Less than 2500 yards"

In WW2, 2500 as a rather extremely long combat distance.


Remember or little engagement today? Your M4A3 with the 75mm M3 cannon was able to penetrate my Tiger's frontal armor easily with a single shot at 487yds.
Now according to http://gva.freeweb.hu/weapons/usa_guns5.html the armor penetration of that gun firing AP is 76mm... the Tiger has 100mm of armor there.

But all Sherman's turrets are way more difficult to destroy in AH, even for a Tiger (I hit your turret 2 times at 1k without) any effect.


And this effect doesn't work against me only. When I'm facing an enemy Tiger I always aim for the turret face, because it's quite easy to penetrate...

you're right i noticed this after that engagement. the panzer cant even shoot the tiger turret out at that range. I looked at your thread posted before this one and quoted the same engagement there. 75mm sherman shouldnt have done this at all. and the tiger needs an armor remodelling

[715]

Quote from: 715 on March 31, 2010, 06:52:26 PM
HVAP is less effective than AP at ranges beyond about 1200 yds (according to HTC).  Use HVAP only at close range.

I find it highly suspect a T34/76 did anything to a Tiger at 2400 yds.  Try it offline.  The T34/76 can only kill a Tiger at point blank range using HVAP, and then only hitting certain areas.

Quote from Lyric1: I don't agree as I have done it at greater distances.

I did some offline testing again.  I believe something has changed: in the past (before HVAP was added) the T34/76 AP could only kill a Tiger at point blank range hitting broadside with 9 shots (hitting the little cross on the hull).  It can do it now with 3 AP shells.  However, I tried to kill the offline Tiger using a T34/76 at ranges of 1200 and 2800 yds at a broadside angle of 90 degrees (ie side on).  I rarely got any penetrations at either range (virtually everything bounced off) and could not kill the Tiger with even the entire AP load (or HVAP in addition).  I hit all over the Tiger, including lobing shots down onto the turret top and engine compartment top from 2800, as well as hitting the junction between the turret and hull.  Never killed it.  Maybe I don't know "where to hit" but then I hit virtually everywhere.  I still find it doubtful that a T34/76 killed an undamaged Tiger at 2400.  Perhaps a lucky shot at very long distances where the shell virtually drops vertically down onto the turret or hull top might do it.

[Ack-Ack]

you're right i noticed this after that engagement. the panzer cant even shoot the tiger turret out at that range. I looked at your thread posted before this one and quoted the same engagement there. 75mm sherman shouldnt have done this at all. and the tiger needs an armor remodelling

There is a thread from Moot where he, some others and I discuss the ranges on which tanks can seemingly kill in here.  I posted some data that clearly showed that the Firefly was capable of kills at ranges that would have been impossible in real life.


ack-ack

[E25280]

Remember or little engagement today? Your M4A3 with the 75mm M3 cannon was able to penetrate my Tiger's frontal armor easily with a single shot at 487yds.
Now according to http://gva.freeweb.hu/weapons/usa_guns5.html the armor penetration of that gun firing AP is 76mm... the Tiger has 100mm of armor there.

In the past there used to be a small gap right under the mantlet where the turret ring was exposed.  An AP hit here always seemed to pop the turret.  Lucky shot perhaps?

Regardless, I believe the Tiger used to be too tough (12 shots from the IV point blank into the rear with NADA result while the tiger's turret s l o w l y turned around and killed me was seriously annoying), and perhaps they over-corrected when they re-did the damage components for it.

But all Sherman's turrets are way more difficult to destroy in AH, even for a Tiger (I hit your turret 2 times at 1k without) any effect.

The mantlet on the Sherman is its thickest armor at 89mm.  Granted, it has almost no slope, but it is substantially thicker than the front hull's 51mm.  The Sherman's turret is also much thicker all around than a PzkwIV's turret.  I still wonder if some of the perception of the toughness of the Sherman's turret is due to the conditioning many of us had with the IV's soft turret relative to its hull?

[Lusche]

In the past there used to be a small gap right under the mantlet where the turret ring was exposed.  An AP hit here always seemed to pop the turret.  Lucky shot perhaps?

Quite possible.

However, I can penetrate the Tiger's turret frontal armor flat on the face with the Sherman 75mm. Not every shot, but I was getting the necessary 2 penetrating hit on about every 10 shots.

Which is perfectly in line with my AH combat experiences, both fighting in as well as against the Tiger. Aim for turret front!
I always felt the Firefly was the only tank benefitting from a hull down position, and the T-35/85 has an even weaker turret in AH than any other tank...

[E25280]

. . . and the T-35/85 has an even weaker turret in AH than any other tank...

I agree that this one seems off.

[Lusche]

Did further offline testing. I can reliably pentrate the Tiger's turret frontal armor at 500yards with the M4 75mm M3 gun. First penetration disables turret, one or two additional and the Tiger is no more. It takes me between 2-15 shots on a fresh Tiger, but I can reproduce it all the time.

According to all data, tables, descriptions I have read so far, this should not be possible?  



With the 76mm cannon, I was repeatedly able to pentetrate & disable & kill Tiger frontal armor, hull & turret, at 1.2k.


M4(76) round penetrating the driver's front plate at 1.2k yards, triggering explosion. The turret is smoking from an earlier penetrating hit at same range.

[Pyro]

However, I can penetrate the Tiger's turret frontal armor flat on the face with the Sherman 75mm. Not every shot, but I was getting the necessary 2 penetrating hit on about every 10 shots.

Actually, you can't get a penetration on the frontal flat armor of the Tiger with the Sherman 75mm.  In testing this out though I did duplicate your experience and what is actually happening is that the Sherman sits high enough that it can actually put a round onto the top armor of the Tiger superstructure.  The strike angle is so flat that it shouldn't matter and the round should ricochet off but that wasn't happening and a penetration was occurring.   On further investigation it turns out that penetration angles were not being calculated beyond 70 degrees(with 0 degrees being straight on) so those hits coming into the roof were acting like they were made at 70 degrees.  Still a very high angle but not quite enough to prevent a penetration of the thin top armor.  That will be changed in the next patch.

[321BAR]

Actually, you can't get a penetration on the frontal flat armor of the Tiger with the Sherman 75mm.  In testing this out though I did duplicate your experience and what is actually happening is that the Sherman sits high enough that it can actually put a round onto the top armor of the Tiger superstructure.  The strike angle is so flat that it shouldn't matter and the round should ricochet off but that wasn't happening and a penetration was occurring.   On further investigation it turns out that penetration angles were not being calculated beyond 70 degrees(with 0 degrees being straight on) so those hits coming into the roof were acting like they were made at 70 degrees.  Still a very high angle but not quite enough to prevent a penetration of the thin top armor.  That will be changed in the next patch.

thank you pyro <S>

[gyrene81]

Actually, you can't get a penetration on the frontal flat armor of the Tiger with the Sherman 75mm.  In testing this out though I did duplicate your experience and what is actually happening is that the Sherman sits high enough that it can actually put a round onto the top armor of the Tiger superstructure.  The strike angle is so flat that it shouldn't matter and the round should ricochet off but that wasn't happening and a penetration was occurring.   On further investigation it turns out that penetration angles were not being calculated beyond 70 degrees(with 0 degrees being straight on) so those hits coming into the roof were acting like they were made at 70 degrees.  Still a very high angle but not quite enough to prevent a penetration of the thin top armor.  That will be changed in the next patch.

Thank you very much sir.

[Lusche]

That will be changed in the next patch.

Thank you. 

Will be back to the proving ground after next patch