A question about the 109 K-4

[Eagleclaw]

A few days ago, I was flying the K-4. A Ki-84  was pulling on my six and I pulled up to do a vertical scissors. The Ki not only outclimbed me, but shot me full of holes even when the sun was above, I was doing a pretty good scissors as well. Isn't the K-4 supposed to be able to do this better? I had WEP and considerably more starting E than the Ki. What did I do wrong? Any input will be helpful, thanks.

Eagleclaw

[Plazus]

If you can post a video of this encounter, it would be easier for us to help you. But judging by what you just said, it appears you misjudged the KI's energy state and may have pulled too many Gs going in the vertical. Hence the reason the KI was able to shoot you down before you could climb away.

[Eagleclaw]

Actually we were both vertical and had both been doing so for much longer than any Ki-84 should be able to, about 35-40 seconds.

[Krusty]

The ki-84 is a superb aircraft, and one that many underestimate. I assure you it lives in the vertical climb arena of a dogfight. Depending on your angle of climb/zoom he was also probably using his low-speed butterfly flaps to great advantage.

It all depends on E-state. Never underestimate a Ki-84 if he's near co-energy.

[Lusche]

As been said before: The Ki-84 is a very good climber. Though it doesn't match the 109K's sustained climbing ability in the long run, it can hang quite well on the prop, keeping the nose up for a long time. And it doesn't need to "catch up"... because you can outrun & outclimb planes, but you can't outclimb bullets.

[jdbecks]

if he see you pull up quite sharp, he could have cut the corner, if you would have made a more gradual climb that got steeper you might have succeeded depending on E states before hand

[Delirium]

And it doesn't need to "catch up"... because you can outrun & outclimb planes, but you can't outclimb bullets.

Bingo... well said, Lusche.

[Bosco123]

You said he was "pulling" on your six? Simply put he had more E than you. If you had any alt. should have went down. Using an airplanes disadvantages against them is the way to go. Ki-84 has a terrible compress rate, and if you got lucky he would have lost his rudder, making it very easy for you to kill him.

[Delirium]

Perhaps the Ki84 wasn't in pure/lead pursuit but instead put his nose into lag and followed you at a shallower angle.

Going up at a shallow angle not only lessens the G load but also gives some energy in reserve when you need.

[grizz441]

This is a simple case of not understanding relative speeds and how closure rates increase when you go nose up.

[mtnman]

A few days ago, I was flying the K-4. A Ki-84  was pulling on my six and I pulled up to do a vertical scissors. The Ki not only outclimbed me, but shot me full of holes even when the sun was above, I was doing a pretty good scissors as well. Isn't the K-4 supposed to be able to do this better? I had WEP and considerably more starting E than the Ki. What did I do wrong? Any input will be helpful, thanks.

Eagleclaw

Look at what Grizz says...

The KI-84 is "pulling on your six" and you went nose up.  He's gaining on you?  He's at least slightly faster than you, and then you go nose up... 

What happens to your speed at that point?  You slow down, allowing him to gain even more.  Sure, he'll slow down too, but he's still going to be a bit faster than you, and in a plane that goes nose-up with the best.  As a general rule, though, the guy who goes nose-up first will slow down first (assuming they're both going the same speed initially).

What's he going to be trying to do?  Zoom as high as he can up to you for the shot...  He's not going to be turning much at all, in an attempt to go as high as he can.  What's one of the worst things you can do in this situation?  Scissors... 

If you're going to go up with someone on your six, you have a few criteria you need to meet-

You need to be at least as fast as the guy behind you, being faster than him is even better.  That means you need to see a "+" on the icon counter.

You need to go up in such a manner that the guy following you needs to fly an equal-length flight path.  That means you can't go up too sharply, and allow him to cut across the "corner".  Film some of your attempts at this, and watch them with trails enabled to see what I mean.

You need to maximize your zoom, and go as high as you can, without doing anything to slow your self down quicker or decrease the height you can zoom.  That means fly straight and "smooth".  If you need to dodge a bullet or two, do it subtly, not jerkily. 

If you have "extra" E, you can do things to keep yourself from going too high, but there's not much you can do to go higher, even if you really need to...

If you're getting caught, zooming is suicide.  Trying to scissors at that point just cements the deal.

[Eagleclaw]

That's just the thing, I was going faster and had substantially more E, I don't know what he did but he did actually have the "+" icon on his counter, he was 1000 out and losing ground. Then he was on my six and closing, there were no other Ki-84s around, could it have been a warp?

[mtnman]

That's just the thing, I was going faster and had substantially more E, I don't know what he did but he did actually have the "+" icon on his counter, he was 1000 out and losing ground. Then he was on my six and closing, there were no other Ki-84s around, could it have been a warp?

Without a film we're limited to guessing, and we're likely to misunderstand the exact scenario you experienced.

Personally, I'd recommend you start filming your fights.  It's easy, and you can delete any of them that you don't want.  With a film, we can really figure out what you did wrong (and/or right...)

Filming your fights, reviewing them, and learning from them will really help you improve, and at a much quicker rate than just flying and dying.  At first you probably won't know what you're looking for, or know it when you see it, so it's especially helpful to have it reviewed by others...

[Agent360]

You were most likely bringing the plane into a power on stall. Your speed will drop rapidly at a high nose up position.

The Ki84 is nearly as fast, looses less energy in the pull up and has more powerful climb with wep. The wep is short but its like a nitro burst when its on. The plane can just hang nose up for much longer than a K4 can. He just hung there until you started to drop pumping bullets at you.

The best thing to do is go vert and then start a shallow spiral turn to the right. Force him to turn nose up. The K4 having more power can muscle around and stay up. The key is to keep airspeed...at least 200 mph...250 is better and rack it around flat slightly nose up. straiten out for speed and do it again. If you get the Ki84 slow enough you can low yoyo back into him and force him into a turning stall where you can come down for a gunpass.

If you are attempting to REVERSE him in the vert you must make him close to guns then go up and chop rolling to avoid guns..hold nose up and wait for him to drop or immedialty flatten out and shallow dive for a high speed escape down.

This is a simple case of not using the verticle correctly.

[Ardy123]

I think better advice is never pull up when someone is on you 6 unless you have an enormous 'e' adv. Now, if you can create an off angle situation such that hes not on your 6 but maybe on your 7 or 5, then you can pull up and snap roll, hopefully causing him to overshoot.

Another thing you can do is a high speed flat scissors, and once it becomes slow, take it into the vert. This will allow you to exploit the enormous power of the k4's engine. The flat scissors will get you guys slow, the rolling scissors will allow you to use your climb/engine adv.

I struggle with Ki-84s too so maybe my advise isn't the best.