Supercharging on the 109's

[Lephturn]

I found this great quote:

"Right out of the starting gate, the XP-47M the horse to beat in terms of speed. The XP-47M proved to be nearly as fast as the XP-47J. 488 mph was obtained on at least one flight. The official maximum speed is 470 mph. However, over-boosting the engine could tweak another 15 to 20 mph out of the big fighter. Some may find this next tidbit hard to swallow, however, the test documents still exist.

During durability testing of the C series R-2800 by Republic, it was decided to find out at what manifold pressure and carburetor temperature caused detonation. The technicians at Republic ran the engine at extreme boost pressures that produced 3,600 hp! But wait, it gets even more amazing. They ran it at 3,600 hp for 250 hours, without any failure! This was with common 100 octane avgas. No special fuels were used. Granted, the engines were largely used up, but survived without a single component failure. Try this with Rolls Royce Merlin or Allison V-1710 and see what happens."

Indeed.  Try that with some rinky-dink Daimler...  

Found that here:
 http://www.cradleofaviation.org/jordanpart1/0401Seversky-Republicb.html

A FANTASTIC read.  Going to buy new ink cartridge for printer now.  I'm gonna bind this article for future reference.  Wow.

I can't wait to see the 47M or N in AH.  The N was a hell of a great plane.

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com


"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
 - Steve Earl

[Nath-BDP]

P51H never saw combat in the ETO Funked...

[chisel]

Nice to see the misinformation flowing freely.


Hydraulic clutch oil should heat up more at low altitude due to slippage.

Gasoline injection systems have little to do with Diesel injection (which incidentally, has been around a heck of alot longer)

Funked: Give the Germans 130 octane for the BMW/DB engine, Raise CR, boost, change the timing a bit. Then compare apples to apples.

I will grant you they were behind in exhaust driven supercharger technology tho,

[funked]

Nath, there were more P-51H's flying by the end of the war than Ta 152's...  P-51H was in full production and in squadron service.  We're talking about technology here not combat.

Chisel I'm not saying DB's and Jumos and BMW's were crap.  But they were a little bit behind.  Having their shops bombed repeatedly hurt production but people don't realize that it slowed development too.  And you are right that the Germans didn't have much luck with turbos, the edge for the Allies was more clear-cut there.


[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-19-2000).]

[chisel]

Didnt think you were Funked. I know your a FW potato even if your playing a Spitdweeb now.  

There was also  design limits because of the airframes. No intercooled 109s nor turboed FW's.

Did they ever build a 190C prototype? Seen drawings never any info tho.

BTW since I have your attention do you have the idle speed for the BMW801

E-mail me killjoy@telusplanet.net or point me to a site with the info. Thanks

[GRUNHERZ]

Are you guys actually asking for a P-51H?

[funked]

For the BMW 801D (as installed on USAAF Fw 190G-3), 1200 rpm was the idle speed on the ground.  1400-1500 rpm was used for warm up, and speeds between 600-1000 rpm were supposed to be avoided because of roughness.  Once warm up and checks were complete, rpm was set back to 1200 rpm.

Yep they built at least one Fw 190C prototype, which became the Ta 152C.  On the Fw 190C prototype they actually had to route the exhaust and compressed intake air outside the fuselage between the engine and the turbo.  It looked like Frankenstein, but I guess the failures of the Hirth turbos were the main problem.

[Dune]

FYI, just a little info on the -51H:

 

Produced: 555

Normal T/O weight: 9500lb's

Engine: Packard (Merlin) V-1650-9

Normal T/O HP: 1380hp

WEP HP: 2270hp

Max Speed (25,000ft): 487 (50mph faster than the -51D)

Climb to 20,000ft: 6.8 minutes

Range w/ Drop Tanks: 1530 (300 miles less than the -51D)

From MustangsMustangs.com

From Joe Baugher's Website:
   

The P-51H was too late to see action in the war in Europe. By the late summer of 1945, some P-51Hs had been issued to a few operational units. These units were in the process of working up to operational status when the war in the Pacific ended with the Japanese surrender. None had the opportunity to see any combat. At the time of V-J Day, 555 P-51Hs had rolled off the Inglewood production lines. With the coming of peace, orders for 1445 more P-51Hs were cancelled, along with the entirety of the order for the Dallas-built P-51Ms after only one example (45-11743) had been completed.

-  http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_13.html

From what I've read, three full Fighter Groups had made the conversion to the -51H when the war ended.  It was the plan to completely replace the -51D with the -51H.  Most things I've seen said the -51H was a much better dogfighter than the -51D because of its lighter frame and more powerful engine.

A F-51H from the Texas Air National Guard:

       

* Sorry for going off topic    


------------------
Lt Col Dune
X.O. 352nd Fighter Group
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"

"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona

[This message has been edited by Dune (edited 10-20-2000).]

[Lephturn]

I think Republic were the leaders when it came to turbo-supercharging.  It was the Jug's great 'charger that allowed it to be the superior high-altitude fighter it was.

I just wish they had built the J model 47 for mass production.

"The P-47M was, essentially, developed collaterally with the XP-47J. The J was fitted with a high output version of the P&W R-2800. Specifically, the R-2800-57. This engine made 2,800 hp @ 2,800 rpm at 35,000 feet. This is in War Emergency Power. The aircraft actually attained 507 mph at an altitude of 34,300 feet. 2,800 hp is 133% of rated power. At military power (100%), the XP-47J could sustain 470 mph. 435 mph was attained at 81% of it's rated power (1,700 hp). All performance figures were obtained at 34,300 feet. The J model was an especially good climbing fighter too. It had a climb rate at sea level of 4,900 fpm. At 20,000 feet, it was still rocketing up at 4,400 fpm, and got there in 4 minutes, 15 seconds. Time to 30,000 feet was only 6 minutes, 45 seconds. Now that's an interceptor! Yet it had a usable range of 1,075 miles. Rather impressive performance. Nor was this a stripped down hotrod. It was fully armed and carried ballast in the wings equal to 267 rds per gun. The aircraft was flown to a height of 46,500 feet and was capable of a bit more."

   

"Chief test pilot Lowery Brabham warms up the XP-47J prior to an early flight in November of 1943. Note the exceptionally tight cowling installation and spinner. This layout worked well, but was not adopted for production P-47s due to increased cost and complexity. However, a similar cowling was incorporated into the XP-72 little more than a year later."

Damn, too bad the AF cancelled that order.  The spinner and cowl were not used on the M or N for simplicity of manufacture... shame.

How nasty would a 500 Mph Jug be? And talk about a Buff hunter.... under 7 minutes to 30k... woooo.

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
 

"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
 - Steve Earl

[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 10-20-2000).]

[Vermillion]

Ok Enlighten me  

The Jumo 213EB?

What production aircraft used that engine? I can find mention that the Ta152H's were using late series Jumo 213E's (and I can produce FW inflight test documents of their use) , but I can't find any information about the B subseries.

The DB605L?

Are you sure you don't mean the DB603L? The very late war Daimler Benz engine that was tested on the Ta152C, but was rejected because Daimler Benz couldn't get any off the production line?

Are we discussing true production engines here, or are we talking about very low numbers essentially handmade prototype engines?

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Vermillion]

And lets not forget the Brits here.

Not only were the Merlins and Griffons excellent, but the late engines manufactured by Napier-Sabre, the Centaurus I believe,  were excellent (ala Hawker Sea Fury).

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Jigster:
So...why was the Merlin mated with the 109 after the war?  

Because Spain had no DBs left.And it was not a problem only here, but also in other countries. Israel's Mezecs were me109Gs mated with Ju engines destined for bombers.

There weren't many DB engines around, in the postwar, yaknow.

[juzz]

 

During durability testing of the C series R-2800 by Republic, it was decided to find out at what manifold pressure and carburetor temperature caused detonation. The technicians at Republic ran the engine at extreme boost pressures that produced 3,600 hp! But wait, it gets even more amazing. They ran it at 3,600 hp for 250 hours, without any failure! This was with common 100 octane avgas. No special fuels were used. Granted, the engines were largely used up, but survived without a single component failure. Try this with Rolls Royce Merlin or Allison V-1710 and see what happens

How about a Napier Sabre then?

 

The Sabre VII was similar to the V; the primary difference was the use of ADI and the strengthening of the internal components. From its 2238 cu.in. displacement a phenomenal 3500 hp was achieved at 3850 rpm. Finally, Napier testran a Sabre at 4000 hp with ADI.

I'd say we have a winner for output per cu. in.  

PS: What is ADI? I have no idea...

Vermillion; the DB 605L was the engine in the Me 109K-14 - the first one with a two-stage supercharger to improve high-alt performance. Oh, and the Centaurus was a Bristol radial sleeve-valve engine.

[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 10-20-2000).]

[Vermillion]

Juzz, 109K14 ?? typo?

The K4 was last true production 109, with a "handful" of K6's that may or may not have been delieverd. Anything beyond that was never built.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[juzz]

If it wasn't built(at least prototypes), how come there is performance data for it? During beta there were Messerschmitt charts posted on this BB for the K-14 with DB 605L and D, using GM-1 and MW 50.

There was a recent thread on the K-14, do a search.