Looking for help with Force Feedback problem

[Baumer]

I've always wanted a center mounted stick with force feedback. So I have started working on designing my own stick, but to get a better understanding of how FF works in Aces High I choose to do some tests with a cheap logitech 3D FF stick first. After lengthening the shaft and removing the rudder pot, I like how it fits' into my existing simpit.



However I am not having any luck with the force feedback working properly. The main problem is that there is no aerodynamic load force on the stick. The effects that are working are; damage, guns, buffet, and stall.

My expectations are that when I spawn onto the runway that the stick would flop to where ever it wants (or I put it). Then as I increase speed going down the runway the forces acting on the stick would stiffen slightly. Then the maximum dynamic force would be greatest in a dive near compressability, the stick would resist movement the most. I get none of that the stick is always flopping about no matter what speed I try in any aircraft.

This is how I have the logitech setup under the game controllers;




I didn't select centering as I thought AH would provide that as the "dynamic" force.

In AH I have it set to the following;


Any help or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

One last thing, when testing under the game controller window, I feel the forces acting on the stick and it moves quickly to each corner. So while I have lengthened the lever (and reduced the force required in my hand to move it) I know that I should still feel something in game.

<S> Baumer

[Krusty]

Hrm... I don't know about aerodynamic forces keeping the stick in place. I've never heard of AH doin that (but then I don't do FF sticks either). That would imply constantly springing back to center, which is basically what you're disabling. Try this: Turn sping-centered back on. Reduce the power if you like for testing purposes. Now when you spawn and you're using trim, does that change the center of your FFB stick, or just the stick in the in-game cockpit?

Theoretically, the air over the surfaces would push everything to "neutral" (i.e. "centered"), right? In the real thing, you still didn't get a limp stick flopping about. it was loose, but it was still held up by the gears and weights of the control surfaces it was linked to, so it wouldn't just fall to the floor when let go. See how loose the stick is at rest, and how stiff/responsive it gets as you take off. Then try something like a short dive. I'm thinking/guessing you'll get different return-to-center tensions.

When I was asking about a similar setup earlier, I had read a few ideas on how to increase the fiction of the stick once FF was disabled, so that the stick pretty much "stayed" where you put it. Some folks used some duck tape around the "ball" of the stick but under the "collar" so that it added friction. Some got clever with the springs somehow. I'd like to try that on a cheap-o stick someday, see if I like it or not.


P.S. I modified my analog MS Precision Pro 3D Plus (aka "one of the many sidewinders") to add new buttons all on the stick so that I can utilize all the buttons on the base and the stick without moving my hand from the stick. Can't really modify anything -- it's all done via PCB and internal computations of chips, but I just made simple parallel circuits attached to the original button solder points and routed the wires up through the handle. More buttons ftw!

[MrRiplEy[H]]

One thing to note is that when you make the stick longer you increase the leverage many times over. This means that the force feedback mechanism has to fight against multiple forces compared to a shorter standard stick.

Think about jacking up your car and trying to do it with a 4 inch stick or with a 20 inch one.

[Krusty]

I don't think he's worried about the strength of the inputs as much as the lack of what he was expecting vis-a-vis airflow-induced-centering of the stick.

[Baumer]

I understand the leverage comment, that's what my last line in the original post is about. Even with the top of the stick off and testing with just the stub from the base, there was no force in AH.

Krusty what I am expecting to happen is just like the real force (at this point I am not discussing any trim issues), so there would be an initial resistance to my stick input, but once the plane begins responding to the input the force, the pressure required on the stick would dissipate (if the stick is held in the same exact position). Then as the maneuver is nearing completion, I move the stick back to center, there should be a force resisting that, and the cycle would begin all over again. Now you would need to add the forces for proper trim, such that in straight and level flight I should move the trim wheels and as I hold the stick centered, the pressure I feel to keep it straight and level should diminish as the plane gets closer to proper trim.

After talking with Skuzzy I am now looking for a Microsoft FF stick to use as the control card for my design.

[Krusty]

I'm not so sure it would react the way you describe.

Mind you I don't KNOW, but I would think deflecting ailerons 30% left and holding it there while you rolled endlessly would require constant pressure (that is, it would not dissipate) and that letting go of that pressure you would not have to "fight" to get back to center, as that airflow resistance is pushing the controls flush and thus pushing the stick back with you, rather than staying in the windstream as if jammed.


Unless I've totally misunderstood your description (which is possible)?

[FLS]

Baumer I have my Logitech G940 setup just like you show in the pics except that all my forces are less than 100% except trim which is 100%. I never use spring centering. Trim works just like you expect .  If I'm on the runway the stick has no resistance, as speed increases the resistance to movement increases. No idea why yours isn't working. I've never had some forces work and others not work, they're either all on or all off. Adding a foot in length to my stick would not mask the trim forces.

[Baumer]

Thanks FLS it may just be a matter of the 3D stick not having as strong a motor as your G940.

One other thing, FLS if your in F3 mode off-line do you get feedback "flutter" in your elevator when the buffet or stall is happening?

I'll also try the lower settings just to see if it works better there then maxed.

[FLS]

I haven't looked at the elevator but I've had the "don't move your stick so fast message" from buffet. I forget if it was stall buffet or damage buffet which can get pretty extreme at high settings. I keep everything except trim below 50%.

[gyrene81]

That stick had a somewhat weak FF motor in it...also, what happens when you setup the "centering spring" settings? The reason I ask is that I have an older model Wingman 3D Digital extreme FF and it doesn't require the centering spring setup since as soon as it powers up, it centers and provides multi point resistance....with the settings you have, firing the guns would vibrate the stick so bad you can't hit the broad side of a barn from inside the barn...I just keep it as a backup now.

[zack1234]

Have you tried forcefeedback in another flight sim?
I have noticed feedback is more pronounced in WW1 areana.
 

[FLS]

Zack there is less trim force in the WW1 arena because the speeds are lower.

[zack1234]

I have noticed in ROF force feedback is different  , are forces deteremined by game?

[FLS]

In my experience they are all different even though I believe they use the same MS API.

[Baumer]

Thanks for all the feedback guys. ( pun intended) I'm looking for a MS FF stick for my project. I have heard that they work the best with Aces High, so I think it will be a better starting point.