What is with the uber zeke

[Noah17]

You can pull 9g's for 2 seconds and then ease back on the stick. The screen does go black for that 2 seconds but, the plane doesn't seem to go out of control. I've done it offline and in other fights. If you've only pulled for 2 seconds and let go you don't stay in a blackout, you come out immediately. It very much seems like you just can't see for the 2 seconds and you're not actually blacked out; you've actually kept control of the stick you just can't see where you're going.

Either way I was facing straight down, rolled 90degrees pulled that 2 seconds and when I eased back I was almost level going in the same direction that my nose was originally pointed in. In order for the zeke to follow me from 800 away and be in almost the same attitude he would have had to pull almost exactly the same. I realize there can be some "cutting the corner" but, at that speed it shouldn't even be close. Any way I don't have the stinkin film so it doesn't matter......

[TequilaChaser]

Good Evening Noah,
just to be clear, I am not trying to argue or debate your experience. I am only trying to see and explain it in a more simple way

You can pull 9g's for 2 seconds and then ease back on the stick. The screen does go black for that 2 seconds but, the plane doesn't seem to go out of control. I've done it offline and in other fights. If you've only pulled for 2 seconds and let go you don't stay in a blackout, you come out immediately. It very much seems like you just can't see for the 2 seconds and you're not actually blacked out; you've actually kept control of the stick you just can't see where you're going.

I too would doubt that you would "lose control" but you would "lose precise stick/controls movement" while in a 2 second blackout, meaning you would actually not being turning as hard as you think you were, once you blackout even for 1 second, your stick input lessens to whatit was right near the end of the tunnel vision to fill blackout, the longer the blackout the worser the outcome....

Either way I was facing straight down, rolled 90degrees pulled that 2 seconds and when I eased back I was almost level going in the same direction that my nose was originally pointed in. In order for the zeke to follow me from 800 away and be in almost the same attitude he would have had to pull almost exactly the same. I realize there can be some "cutting the corner" but, at that speed it shouldn't even be close. Any way I don't have the stinkin film so it doesn't matter......

I can not invision you was going in the same direction, from the way you described initially going nosefacing straight down, rolling 90 degrees then pulling a 2nd blackout and coming out of the blackout and facing the same way you was originally pointed.... with this description, it shows that you did not have the control over the plane you thought you had, unless you got some of the sequence in reverse order or mixed up

I would love to try and help you with this, but as you posted..... you have no film :-/

try filiming it, review it and if it happens to be what you think you had done, and have described I would like to look at the film, Sir...

just trying to help is all...  

[Noah17]

I understand TC and really do appreciate the help.

When I said still going the same way in the fight I meant that my nose was pointing in the direction I intended and the F4U still seemed to be turning as hard as I thought it would. This I had done offline in the past and it seemed to work as I thought when I had tried it and filmed it offline. If I did that offline there probably isnt anyway for someone else to know exactly when I was blacked out or not.....

Any way thanks again.
 

[mtnman]

I don't see anything abnormal about the zekes lately either.

Noah, to be honest, it sounds like you did about the worst thing you could do in that situation.  The zeke has more trouble as speed builds, and is much more at home if you slow the fight down.  Pulling hard G's (like you did) slows the fight down. 

I imagine the zeke was unable to pull with you and mimic the moves, as you mentioned you thought he must have done.  He was probably unable to do any serious maneuvering at all at that speed.  With you pulling hard g's in front of him (and slowing down in the process), you put the fight into his realm...

[Noah17]

Mtnman,I take your word for it, I trust your judgement as well as TC(and others). You've been a great help with teaching me the rope for killing zeke's.

I guess when it comes to killing zeke's or some other fighters(109's?) that don't turn or roll that well at high speeds I haven't learned how to take advantage of that in the F4U. I know others do it easily but it's a skill I have not yet grasped.

Perhaps this is turning in to a different thread? I didn't mean to "hijack" it.
 

[whiteman]

Noah after flying the A6M in the AVA this week I couldn't do any High speed tight turns. Noticed the same when fighting them, if i could get them to dive after me and follow me back up they couldn't turn with me if they tried to keep the massive amount of E.

[mtnman]

Mtnman,I take your word for it, I trust your judgement as well as TC(and others). You've been a great help with teaching me the rope for killing zeke's.

I guess when it comes to killing zeke's or some other fighters(109's?) that don't turn or roll that well at high speeds I haven't learned how to take advantage of that in the F4U. I know others do it easily but it's a skill I have not yet grasped.

Perhaps this is turning in to a different thread? I didn't mean to "hijack" it.
 

If you feel like it's something you'd like to discuss in depth, you could just start a new thread... 

I don't want to get carried away in this one.

[wgmount]

I did some testing with Wingmount last night and there is no bug,I climbed to 23k and dove to 520TAS and started into compression.A 2G pullout snapped both elevators off,there was some control stiffening above 350TAS as there should be.

 If anything maybe the controls could use abit more stiffening above 400/450 TAS but nothing seemed much different from the Zeke in versions past.

   

Yep, I shed parts at 550 IAS both ailerons from 17k. I just wanted to replicate what I saw in the MA. My original contention was the A6M had weak control inputs at speeds of around 450 IAS due to airflow over the wings. My reasoning was reading descriptions of the a6m5 from this book.

http://www.amazon.com/Aircraft-Profile-Mitsubishi-%60Zero-Sen%60-%60Zeke/dp/B000HESS76/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1272265734&sr=8-1-fkmr0

and this statement:

In the pursuit of better combat capability (especially a higher diving speed), the 904th Reisen (an A6M3) was converted as a prototype for what was to become the A6M5 series. This project was supervised by engineer Mijiro Takahashi, who had taken over development of the Zero from Jiro Horikoshi so that the latter could concentrate on the J2M Raiden interceptor. The converted aircraft was fitted with a new set of wings with heavier gauge skin and with redesigned, non-folding rounded wingtips. The wingspan was reduced to 36 feet 1 1/16 inches and wing area to 229.3 square feet. The standard A6M3 armament of two 20-mm cannon and two 7.7-mm machine guns was retained, as were the two wing tanks and the Sakae 21 engine. However, new individual exhaust stacks were fitted to the cylinder heads, which added some residual thrust.

The first A6M5 flew in August of 1943. In spite of an increase in all-up weight of 440 pounds, the A6M5 was faster than the A6M3 Model 32, and could reach a maximum level speed of 351 mph at 19,685 feet.

More important, it could now be dived at speeds of up to 410 mph.

[morfiend]

Wgmount,that 410 mph doesnt state whether it's TAS or IAS.

 Did you happen to notice the IAS when you were at 17k doing over 500 TAS?

 I bet it wasnt far off the 410 stated in that article.


   

[Noah17]

Thanks again for all your help guys. I'm sure the model is ok.....I'm probably way off for some reason.

I'm going to fly the zeke and maybe the 109 offline using trails and compare them to the F4U at high speed turns maybe I can find something that makes better sense to me. All I'm hoping for is to see an opportunity to roll and pull to the side and hopefully up and over them as they continue down. Apparently this is what everyone else does that's able to get them to dive with them to well into the 400's.
If I'm wrong I'll find out soon enough!!! LOL

[Ack-Ack]

Yep, I shed parts at 550 IAS both ailerons from 17k. I just wanted to replicate what I saw in the MA. My original contention was the A6M had weak control inputs at speeds of around 450 IAS due to airflow over the wings. My reasoning was reading descriptions of the a6m5 from this book.

http://www.amazon.com/Aircraft-Profile-Mitsubishi-%60Zero-Sen%60-%60Zeke/dp/B000HESS76/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1272265734&sr=8-1-fkmr0

and this statement:

In the pursuit of better combat capability (especially a higher diving speed), the 904th Reisen (an A6M3) was converted as a prototype for what was to become the A6M5 series. This project was supervised by engineer Mijiro Takahashi, who had taken over development of the Zero from Jiro Horikoshi so that the latter could concentrate on the J2M Raiden interceptor. The converted aircraft was fitted with a new set of wings with heavier gauge skin and with redesigned, non-folding rounded wingtips. The wingspan was reduced to 36 feet 1 1/16 inches and wing area to 229.3 square feet. The standard A6M3 armament of two 20-mm cannon and two 7.7-mm machine guns was retained, as were the two wing tanks and the Sakae 21 engine. However, new individual exhaust stacks were fitted to the cylinder heads, which added some residual thrust.

The first A6M5 flew in August of 1943. In spite of an increase in all-up weight of 440 pounds, the A6M5 was faster than the A6M3 Model 32, and could reach a maximum level speed of 351 mph at 19,685 feet.

More important, it could now be dived at speeds of up to 410 mph.

The dive speed restriction for the A6M5 was 400knots (460.31mph TAS), as I mentioned in one of my previous posts in this thread.


ack-ack

[grizz441]

You also have to realize that a plane going slower than you can actually gain distance on you by simply cutting off your angles.  Two quick sketches to illustrate my point:

[mtnman]

All I'm hoping for is to see an opportunity to roll and pull to the side and hopefully up and over them as they continue down. Apparently this is what everyone else does that's able to get them to dive with them to well into the 400's.
If I'm wrong I'll find out soon enough!!! LOL

Personally, I don't have a lot of luck with that on Zekes, unless I can really surprise them and get a nice clean shot.  Too often though, they barely manage to evade my shot, and then I'm stuck slow with them.

That doesn't mean that isn't a good maneuver to use;  I use it against a ton of planes, in a whole bunch of situations.  I just don't use it for zekes (or hurris).

For zekes (and hurris), all I do if they're behind me is get/keep my speed up, and use my roll to roll right and pull just enough to not get shot.  As they roll right, I do the same to the left.  These are subtle moves, I'm nowhere near a "break".  As a matter of fact, I don't want to get out from in front of him, I just want to keep him interested/following, but spoil his shot.  Eventually, I'm looking to have about 1K separation, and be in level flight with him pursuing.  Then, as the counter gives me a "+", and the icon clicks to 1.5, I start to gradually go up.  All I'm doing is roping him, and I want to go gradually to force him to follow my flight path, with no option to "cut the corner".

If he follows me up, I rope him/kill him.  If he doesn't, I roll over from the top and dive on him for an attack. 

Nothing fancy.  Honestly, as slow as the zekes and hurris are, I don't see them as much of a factor in an F4U.  If you treat them this way, they're just fodder.  The most dangerous aspect of this type of fight, is when they don't follow your rope, and then pull up for an HO as you dive in.  For that matter, it's really about the only effective shot the zeke or hurri has against you.  A second possibility would be a barrel roll defense-type maneuver and a shot as you go by, but that's really easy for you to avoid as long as you watch for it, and don't pull hard for a shot.

Watch for that (the vertical HO)- it means the fight is about over...  As soon as you see them pull up, roll 90 degrees left or right, and pull up, pretty dang hard.  The roll spoils their shot.  The only way for them to aim is to use rudder, which spoils their zoom...  As you pull up, re-acquire them in your rear right or left view, and just before they stall, roll in and kill them.  They'll be stalled and tipping over as you shoot.  You've just roped him, and he set it up for you by pulling for the vertical HO...

There's not much a zeke or hurri can do to an F4U, as long as you keep the fight smooth and fast.  Obviously, as you rope you'll be slow, but if you do it right, you'll be safe, and transitioning to a nose-down speed-building phase.  There's no sense in "forcing" the fight with any fancy moves.  Fighting those two planes is an exercise in patience.  Set up a good shot.  If you don't have one, set up another.  The zeke can't get away, and he can't force you to do much of anything...

About the only time I see a zeke as a legitimate "threat" is if they're high, and I'm busy in a fight.  1v1 is no issue, but they're dangerous if they can sneak up on you while your busy.  If they do that, you're in the situation I described at the beginning of the post...

[wgmount]

Wgmount,that 410 mph doesnt state whether it's TAS or IAS.

 Did you happen to notice the IAS when you were at 17k doing over 500 TAS?

 I bet it wasnt far off the 410 stated in that article.


   

I break it at 550 TAS every time. According to the E6b that is around 490 IAS. I don't know where they got the numbers for that book if it was from design notes or flight testing. I suppose those would be conservative from design notes and you could push it a little more. I would be interested where AKAK got his info of the 460mph if he'd care to state his source

[Ack-Ack]

A6M Zero in Action, Shigeru Nohara, 1983
Aircraft of World War II, General Editor: Jim Winchester, 2004
Aircraft of WWII, Stewart Wilson, 1998
Seafire vs A6M Zero Pacific Theatre, Donald Nijboer, 2009

Take your pick.  Each one mentions the dive speed restriction put in place for the A6M5.  Now remember, just because there was a dive restriction doesn't mean the plane wasn't able to exceed that limitation.  It was a warning to pilots not to exceed it as bad things could happen if they did.


ack-ack