Author Topic: M4A3(76)W - first impressions  (Read 10522 times)

Offline E25280

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Re: M4A3(76)W - first impressions
« Reply #105 on: May 28, 2010, 08:14:21 PM »
Ready rounds, stationary position, 2 man gun operation (i.e. gunner and loader)...why would the T-34/76 reload time be nearly 5 seconds slower than both of the Shermans when the ammuntion is shorter and lighter?
Do you have any sources that says it fired any faster?  From what I found, the in-game ROF for the T-34/76 seems reasonable.
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: M4A3(76)W - first impressions
« Reply #106 on: May 28, 2010, 08:26:21 PM »
Not sure why you would say this.  The Sherman still has a three man turret, and the T-34 is still a 2 man turret regardless of the increase in size.  

This site shows a chart with its source footnoted.  It shows the rate of fire of the F-34 gun for the T-34 at 5-10 rounds per minute.  Our roughly 8 second reload time would translate to 7.5 rounds per minute, which is right in the middle.

And here is another site that lists the "practical rate of fire" as 4-8 shots per minute.

More / better sources anyone has would be appreciated!
Armchair general dot com? That's a board gaming site...although very interesting not a reliable source. The battlefield dot ru site is interesting. Nice find.
Interesting footnote on there:
Quote
The practice rate of fire of the T-34 was 3–5 shots per minute due to unsuccessful ammo layout.

In answer to your question sir, the T-34 model 1943 had a slightly larger turret than it's predecessors and the F-34 main gun had a breech/loading mechanism similar in function to the Sherman...also the tank commander performed as the gunner in combat situations.



Do you have any sources that says it fired any faster?  From what I found, the in-game ROF for the T-34/76 seems reasonable.
No sir and I pretty much agree after looking through that last site you linked. However, similarly I believe the 75/76mm Shermans should have a slower rate of fire, not 3.6 seconds. One question still remains though, what besides inexperienced crewmen would cause such a slower rate of fire in a gun that operated similarly to the M3 Sherman gun? 1 man firing the gun, 1 man loading, a number of rounds in "ready racks", semi-automatic breech/loading mechanism, similar size and weight ammunition, stationary firing stance...smaller turret space means shorter distances to reach ammunition...under combat conditions 1 or 2 seconds should be all the difference there is.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 08:53:42 PM by gyrene81 »
jarhed  
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Offline Pongo

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Re: M4A3(76)W - first impressions
« Reply #107 on: May 28, 2010, 09:27:05 PM »
Oh its so nice to see,
Little gyrene considering the issues he called me clueless for considering such a short time ago.
Hes still pretty clueless and not asking any questions so still a long way to go.
But the little padi wan is on the road to wisdom!
Seems like it was only  a 4 day golf weekend ago that he really knew nothing at all about ww2 tanks, but he had a burning interest for sure...(hey wait..it was only a 4 day golf weekend ago!)
Some people cannot be taught with a hug, they need the rod.
Gyrene, some day, when you have learned allot more about the evolution of Tanks, some clown will say something so stupid that you have to respond, remember me, and  how I burned all that bull shhh1t off of you.
Now you think the same thing as me, and your don't even remember your stupid self from last week. If you met last week gyrene, you would flame yourself.
Isn't the internet wonderful?

Offline E25280

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Re: M4A3(76)W - first impressions
« Reply #108 on: May 28, 2010, 09:58:12 PM »
Armchair general dot com? That's a board gaming site...although very interesting not a reliable source.
The table is sourced:
"Otechestvennye bronirovannye mashiny. XX vek" : nauchnoe izdanie v 4-kh tomakh/ Solyankin A.G., Pavlov M.V., Pavlov I.V., Zheltov I.G./ Tom 2.  "Otechestvennye bronirovannye mashiny. 1941-1945" , Moscow, Exprint, 2005 "
Although I have no idea if the source is reliable, the table is certainly not based on pure speculation.

No sir and I pretty much agree after looking through that last site you linked. However, similarly I believe the 75/76mm Shermans should have a slower rate of fire, not 3.6 seconds.

Hunnicut's reference work on the Sherman seems to disagree, as do Army manuals.  One shot every 3.6 seconds is less than 17 rounds per minute, which is slower than the theoretical maximum of 20 rounds per minute.  Again, if there is a reliable source that contradicts this, then I would agree it should be slowed.  In the absence of contradictory evidence, I would think we have to rely on those manuals.

One question still remains though, what besides inexperienced crewmen would cause such a slower rate of fire in a gun that operated similarly to the M3 Sherman gun? 1 man firing the gun, 1 man loading, a number of rounds in "ready racks", semi-automatic breech/loading mechanism, similar size and weight ammunition, stationary firing stance...smaller turret space means shorter distances to reach ammunition...under combat conditions 1 or 2 seconds should be all the difference there is.
Now you are asking for speculation rather than sourced reference materials.  We have sourced references that seem to support the in-game rates of fire, and I would think this is what should be used in a game like AH.

But if you want to go into speculation, I would say you have a few faulty conclusions.  First is assume since there are two people physically operating the gun means they have the same amount of room.  They couldn't physically fit a third person into the T-34's turret, and it was cramped for the people who were there.  The Sherman's turret was comparatively "roomy" even with the commander present.  Second, although both had "Semi-automatic breech mechanisms", we don't have some of the particulars in terms of recoil length/time for all weapons, which could have an impact on ROF.  Third, let's take a look specifically at those ready rounds you reference -- not all ready rounds are created equally.  The Sherman book I linked earlier showed a picture of the ready round bin, which is in the floor of the turret basket, presumably directly below the gun for very easy access by the loader, who needs only reach down for them.  The T-34, as stated earlier in the thread, had no turret basket.  This book in the Firepower section (pg 41) states that in the T-34/76 there were three ready rounds on the hull side near the loader's feet and six more ready rounds on the opposite wall near the commander.  So in a more confined space, to access the ready rounds, the T-34 loader needed to twist and bend down to the floor or reach around the commander/gunner to get the rounds, vs. the Sherman loader simply reaching down at presumably arms length to get them.

So, speculating, the Sherman's loader seems to have a very large advantage even when talking only access to the ready rounds.  After the ready rounds are gone, we are back to bins in the floor with matting over them vs. the Sherman's racks (a good picture in the earlier link).

So to me it seems the disparity of rate of fire makes sense given both the documentary evidence presented so far and the ergonomics involved.
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Offline Pongo

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Re: M4A3(76)W - first impressions
« Reply #109 on: May 28, 2010, 10:33:01 PM »
Does Hunnicut rate the 75 and 76 with the same ROF?
I do not have a copy. I know Pyro does though.

Offline gyrene81

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Re: M4A3(76)W - first impressions
« Reply #110 on: May 28, 2010, 11:42:36 PM »
Hunnicut's reference work on the Sherman seems to disagree, as do Army manuals.  One shot every 3.6 seconds is less than 17 rounds per minute, which is slower than the theoretical maximum of 20 rounds per minute.  Again, if there is a reliable source that contradicts this, then I would agree it should be slowed.  In the absence of contradictory evidence, I would think we have to rely on those manuals.
Now you are asking for speculation rather than sourced reference materials.  We have sourced references that seem to support the in-game rates of fire, and I would think this is what should be used in a game like AH.
Quite the contrary...but Pongo seems to think Pyro is guessing

In a game that doesnt really model any of the design deficiencies of the T34 76, Pyro just abstracted them to a slow rate of fire.
I am fine with that. There is no soft ground or snow or cost based spawn rates to show some of its strengths either.


I have consistently stated the only thing HTC can go with is what is documented in the books regardless of all other factors.
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Offline E25280

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Re: M4A3(76)W - first impressions
« Reply #111 on: May 29, 2010, 01:13:07 AM »
Does Hunnicut rate the 75 and 76 with the same ROF?
I do not have a copy. I know Pyro does though.
I don't own a copy myself, but have found several places where his books are used as source material and have found other forums where owners of the book quote him, like this one.  About half way down is this quote:

"According to Hunnicutt (and that would likely mean that the data is based on US and UK manuals), the maximum rate of fire was:

M4A3 75mm: 20 RPM
M4A3 76mm: 20 RPM
M4A3 105mm: 8 RPM
Sherman VC (Firefly): 10 RPM

However, that seems to be a theoretical figure based on the capabilities of the gun."

Think I'll check out the local library this weekend and see if I can acquire a copy to verify for myself.
Brauno in a past life, followed by LTARget
SWtarget in current incarnation
Captain and Communications Officer~125th Spartans

"Proudly drawing fire so that my brothers may pass unharmed."

Offline gyrene81

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Re: M4A3(76)W - first impressions
« Reply #112 on: May 29, 2010, 10:54:19 AM »
I don't own a copy myself, but have found several places where his books are used as source material and have found other forums where owners of the book quote him, like this one.  About half way down is this quote:

"According to Hunnicutt (and that would likely mean that the data is based on US and UK manuals), the maximum rate of fire was:

M4A3 75mm: 20 RPM
M4A3 76mm: 20 RPM
M4A3 105mm: 8 RPM
Sherman VC (Firefly): 10 RPM

However, that seems to be a theoretical figure based on the capabilities of the gun."

Think I'll check out the local library this weekend and see if I can acquire a copy to verify for myself.
What you are finding as the ROF for the 75mm M3 , 105mm M4 Howitzer (M101A1) and QF 17pdr are the highest evaluated rates of fire for the guns in their configurations prior to being adapted to tank use...i.e. towed artillery. For the 76mm M1 gun as I stated earlier it is a marriage of the barrel from the M7 76mm used in the M10 Tank Destroyer which in itself was a modified version of the M5 anti-tank gun, and a modified M3 breech system...the M1 76.2mm gun was also used in the M18 "Hellcat" Tank Destroyer. If there is a listed ROF for the M1 76mm gun, it will probably be based on the M18 Hellcat.
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Offline Nemisis

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Re: M4A3(76)W - first impressions
« Reply #113 on: May 29, 2010, 12:16:30 PM »
Is there any difference in preformance between the M7 and the M1? Or was it just something to ease production?
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Offline Pongo

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Re: M4A3(76)W - first impressions
« Reply #114 on: May 29, 2010, 01:20:19 PM »
"Quite the contrary...but Pongo seems to think Pyro is guessing"
?
I think he took info from a book somewhere, what do you think he did, stop watch crews in battle and average it?
Sorry, I said think in relation to you, which is a huge reach.

Offline Pongo

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Re: M4A3(76)W - first impressions
« Reply #115 on: May 31, 2010, 10:12:52 PM »
Picked up a great book on the M4a2 76w today.
Great pictures of the interior, but hard to see how the loading would compare with the 75mm versions. Sure looks cramped though.

Offline gyrene81

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Re: M4A3(76)W - first impressions
« Reply #116 on: May 31, 2010, 11:08:28 PM »
Picked up a great book on the M4a2 76w today.
Great pictures of the interior, but hard to see how the loading would compare with the 75mm versions. Sure looks cramped though.
That should be an interesting read, mind if I ask what the title is?
jarhed  
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Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline hlbly

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Re: M4A3(76)W - first impressions
« Reply #117 on: June 01, 2010, 06:11:11 AM »
The M4a3(76) has a different hull than the Firefly. The Firefly's hull is closer to that of the M4(75). The hull on the 76 has nothing protruding so it is completely flat.
The hull is the same . Drive train is the only thing different the horizontal volute spring suspension or hvss . The 76 came in both cast and welded hull . gyrene with an April 1941 date I doubt that any of those are from a 75mm . When first introduced in the desert the m4 was hailed . It finally gave the commonwealth forces a tank that could stand toe to toe with the Pzkw IV F . and the PzkwIII G and better . The germans referred to it as a Tommy cooker . The allies called it the ronson .All of this led to the wet ammo storage .
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 06:15:20 AM by hlbly »

Offline humble

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Re: M4A3(76)W - first impressions
« Reply #118 on: June 01, 2010, 10:07:26 AM »
The soviets have had issues with turret ergonomics since WW2. T-34 was so bad that loaders had to be left handed and 5'8" or under and still had serious issues with having the left hand/arm caught in the recoil. Lot of 1 armed ex tankers in the USSR...

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Offline Pongo

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Re: M4A3(76)W - first impressions
« Reply #119 on: June 01, 2010, 10:32:49 AM »
Other then M4a2 I do not recall the title, its at home.
The tank they crawled around looked like the post war Canadian ones. It was at some musem in silicone valley, it is in great shape and even has 4 of the 5 thompsons in the vehicle.