Author Topic: Reviewing the "HO"  (Read 10757 times)

Offline humble

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6434
Re: Reviewing the "HO"
« Reply #75 on: May 25, 2010, 03:12:16 PM »
FireDrgn, I think that is precisely the problem. Real ACM pilots know the difference but get accused by the uninitiated. For all intents and purposes the hostility to the HO covers any front quarter shot for the majority of pilots.

In that sense, I think that ultimately this discussion will get bogged down in that. What I think MtnMan and I have advocated is to expect the HO or front quarter shot and defend against it. That is the only stance that makes sense and will WORK in the arena.

My thought's are as they relate to the newer player and the understanding that constantly focusing on the 1st opportunity to gain a shot (normally a "HO" or "FQ" shot) often has a significant negative impact on what follows. The goal being to educate those players that other options exist and that taking the time to explore those options eventually will result in not only more enjoyment of the game....but better results over time.

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline 2bighorn

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2829
Re: Reviewing the "HO"
« Reply #76 on: May 25, 2010, 03:39:08 PM »
but it is still left up to each individual on how they decide to fight...

Fight? You can kill in AH without fight. That's why we have spawn campers, cherry pickers, runners and HOers.
All of the above are arguably sound tactical choices, except one, that's the HO.

I'd say, choosing to HO is not so much about "how to fight". It's choice "to fight or not to fight".

Offline humble

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6434
Re: Reviewing the "HO"
« Reply #77 on: May 25, 2010, 03:45:50 PM »
Fight? You can kill in AH without fight. That's why we have spawn campers, cherry pickers, runners and HOers.
All of the above are arguably sound tactical choices, except one, that's the HO.

I'd say, choosing to HO is not so much about "how to fight". It's choice "to fight or not to fight".


Yes and No, I think that for a significant % of the player base it's perceived as a "best solution" since it does work against all players some of the time (or we wouldn't here the constant whine). It just doesn't work against good players very often, so the spiral of frustration deepens. Once you get someone to abandon what appears to be an easy option in favor of a more difficult but rewarding set of possibilities they never go back....but you need to get them started somehow.

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline 2bighorn

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2829
Re: Reviewing the "HO"
« Reply #78 on: May 25, 2010, 04:17:02 PM »
Yes and No, I think that for a significant % of the player base it's perceived as a "best solution" since it does work against all players some of the time (or we wouldn't here the constant whine). It just doesn't work against good players very often, so the spiral of frustration deepens. Once you get someone to abandon what appears to be an easy option in favor of a more difficult but rewarding set of possibilities they never go back....but you need to get them started somehow.

Yes, I understand that, it's just that I wasn't really talking about the new players in that post, it was meant as reply to TC's post where he talked about new & old players alike.








Offline TequilaChaser

  • AH Training Corps - Retired
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10173
      • The Damned - founded by Ptero in 1988
Re: Reviewing the "HO"
« Reply #79 on: May 25, 2010, 04:39:37 PM »
Yes, I understand that, it's just that I wasn't really talking about the new players in that post, it was meant as reply to TC's post where he talked about new & old players alike.



bighorn, only reason I posted to both new and old players, is because I have witnessed players that have ben here 3 to 4 years or more and seen them make comments like "this is my 1st time ever in the Training arena and I have played for 3 or 4 years etc..." so my post is directed at both New & Old players......

with the only questionable item being the difference between how they play verses how they fight.......  is one in the same to most people, wouldn't you say?........ you don't have to answer that last question..

"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline Dawger

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 925
Re: Reviewing the "HO"
« Reply #80 on: May 25, 2010, 06:17:22 PM »
6 pages.

If you put yourself in front of the other guy's guns you deserve to get shot.

It is that simple.

Offline Sonicblu

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 653
Re: Reviewing the "HO"
« Reply #81 on: May 25, 2010, 07:31:06 PM »
Dawger is spot on here.. :aok


Firedrgn is right you guys havent even defined ho for the sake of the discusion. You call ho and 99% of the discriptions are front quarter shots.
Like Mtnman said as soon as there isnt two gun solutions it isnt a HO.

Not one of you actually gets upset about a HO as defined by both having a gun solution. Because as you say you never fly this way, and you always expect it. Its when you go guns cold on a head on merge and expect the other guy to do the same that causes the problem.

. One player takes his advantage with a front shot the other by trying to position himself better for the next merge/gunsolution.


 It is the best solution for new player who lack acm, or poor merge tactics to HO. because if he doesnt, he knows that other guy will be on his six. We are already flying for a better position to get a "respectable kill" by out ACM ing the other guy. But what we are really doing is taking advantage of the guns cold merge expectation that comes from the idea and channel 200 banter, and BB threads that are a bully pulpit for NO HO/guns cold merge.

The ONLY reason I dont want the other guy to HO ( HO here is defined as where I died with head on shot or took damage to plane) is because it gives ME the advantage.
Isnt that what we are really taking about. Getting killed with the HO or taking damage that puts us at a disadvantage. Because a HO without a kill or damage is NOTHING to a more skilled pilot and actually gives the advantage.

Offline The Fugitive

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17875
      • Fugi's Aces Help
Re: Reviewing the "HO"
« Reply #82 on: May 26, 2010, 07:41:38 AM »
A HO is when a nwb or an old timer points the nose of his plane at the nose of the enemy plane with the full intent of shooting each other in the face. Any dancing around a "definition" is just a person looking for a reason to go for a HO.

The idea of thread is to educate the players of the advantages they are giving up by pressing for that shot. By not going for the HO you giving both planes a chance for a fight and for most of us, that's what we are looking for.

Offline mechanic

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11308
Re: Reviewing the "HO"
« Reply #83 on: May 26, 2010, 08:38:38 AM »


Let the fight drag out, and then what?  If you shoot me down, I'm looking at it like "I can't believe I wasted my time on that.  The fight was over before it began, and even though his merge was horrid, and would have likely killed him IRL, he's thinking he's got this dogfighting thing figured out?".  If I win later in the fight, so what?  The fight was over at the beginning in my mind.




Hey MTN, forgive my late quote here. I see this in bold as a selfish attitude. I'm not calling you selfish by character, I have full respect for you, just calling that statement. The reason you 'wasted your time on that' was fun for two people. I have read the whole thread and I find some things you say very true, such as 'who decides what is valid' and 'the object is to shoot the other guy down'. That line of your argument is logical and fair. I also cant stand the fashion of complaining evertime we get killed in a way we didnt like. Which by the way, happens to be everytime we die, as we dont ever like being shot.

What I strongly take issue to is the quote i put in bold above.
If you had made the killshot on a HO merge, would it be fun for the other player? No.
Would it even be fun for you? I don't see how.

This is a game about sporting competition and rivalry. It is not a life or death situation where your entire nation is at war with the other pilot. Not taking a HO shot is not some misguided sense of 'honour'. What it is is a player saying 'Hey, lets take a risk and see what happens if I don't take the easy option'.  Some of the best fights are when both players push the evelope even further and hold fire on any HO merge throughout the fight. I'm not talking about people who turn away at 400 yards ahead of the 3-9 cross on first merge, they deserve to get shot. I'm talking about a true bonafide head on merge where both pilots hold guns on target untill collision avoidance is critical. We are discussing the HO shot. Not a FQ shot. Yes a HO is also 'valid' but so is ramming them, niether are very clever.
 
It's a cocky and arrogant spirit that teases the opponent with a longer fight, a show of bravado that proclaims 'I don't need to take the first and easiest shot I can'.  It is taking a risk, because risk is exciting and unpredictable. Killing the enemy with a touch of class and finesse or dying trying is worth more to me than another notch on my kill card. So what if you lose and he thinks 'I've got this flying thing sorted out'. That false sense of acheivement wont last long after they next get shot down.

Taking the first merge HO shot is doing nothing but proclaiming an inherant lack of self confidence in winning the fight any other way.



 I'm looking at it like "I can't believe I wasted my time on that.



I fly for 5-20 minutes and end the first fight I find with a HO merge. That is the waste of time. Not only is it a waste of my time but it is a waste of the other player's time.

« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 10:06:23 AM by mechanic »
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline mtnman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2438
Re: Reviewing the "HO"
« Reply #84 on: May 26, 2010, 01:48:53 PM »
Why it wouldn't matter? Just because I like dueling it doesn't mean I dislike MA. Besides, you can do all kind of things in dueling arena, including having your own dueling rules.

Different arenas, different gameplay, DA, MA, AvA, KoTH, they complement each other. Whilst having preferences, I do not limit myself to single arena, nor did I ever say, to anyone, which they should prefer.

I guess I wouldn't expect my opinion to matter if I'm not involved in the activity.  I don't limit myself in the game beyond not participating in things I don't feel like participating in.  My time in game is limited, so I spend it where I get the most bang for my buck.  If my opinion matters in areas I'm not involved, i guess that's flattering, but not necessary.

The one thing I disagree most with in your post is this-

HO shot is a bad choice in all of them, most of the time. It rather distract from solid ACM.

I'd argue against your last statement.  As a matter of fact, I think the guns-cold merge detracts from some solid ACM.  I'm tempted to say the same for the HO, but in reality, I'd say that having the HO as a valid tactic forces solid ACM.  Not from an offensive standpoint, but from a defensive standpoint.

A guns-cold merge is like saying "let's skip part of the fight, and jump ahead to what I/we find to be the most fun".  Sure, players improve in those later aspects, but I highly suspect that as a result of skipping the first part of the fight, or at least taking the hazardous aspects out, a player's ability to successfully deal with those aspects is weakened. 

If that were truly the case, I'd expect accomplished duelists who don't deviate from their guns-cold merge style, to take FQ hits in the MA, and be frustrated by their opponents choice to take those shots when they're presented with the option.  I'd expect complaints of HO'er, HO-dweeb, etc to result.  I'd expect it to be mainly complaints by the "more-experienced" pilots directed towards the "less-experienced" pilots.

As further speculative "evidence", I'd say that if we were to remove any other hazardous component of the fight, our maneuvering to defend from those aspects would be reduced.  Habits would be formed based on the fact that that component of the fight no longer exists, and if that component were re-introduced, our ability to defend against it would be (at least temporarily) reduced. 

As an example, imagine if we could no longer shoot our opponent in the low-six.  It's as fair to remove that threat as it is to remove the HO (heck, it's a blind spot!  How sporting is it to take a shot like that?).  Now, if you could no longer take hits from a player in that position, how much effort would be applied to defending from hits fired from that location?  Why bother?  And further, what if people realized that it was a "safe zone"?  The "front" pilot could actually take advantage of that, and maneuver his plane to put his enemy in that "safe zone" and remove his shot opportunity...  Now, a year (or 10) later, re-introduce that threat, and make that shot "legitimate".  What will the (at least initial) effect be?

I see those same results spawning from repeated guns-cold merges, where there is no threat of taking damage.  And, about the only worse-case scenario I can immediately think of would be if HTC removed the collision aspect/threat from the game, or particularly from one well-populated arena.  Eeeks!  Imagine the whining!

IMO, if we're going to call our dogfighting at all realistic, we need to retain as many realistic aspects/components as possible.  Removing any of them reduces the realism, and IMO, makes them more "fraudulent".  Just imagine how it would be if we could continue a fight while our plane was burning, or while pilot wounded, or after our tail was shot off.

There is no DA or MA merge. Only good or bad merge. I can assure you that solid merge works equally well in DA as in MA. Hot or cold.

Yes, some merges are fine for both.  Not all.  Even if the difference is subtle, the guns-cold merge allows a more aggressive stance in the merge, which wouldn't always be possible in a guns-hot merge.  In essence, a guns-hot merge requires a certain amount of "caution" or "defensiveness" that isn't required (or rewarded) in a guns cold merge.  And, if your opponent "knows" he won't get damaged in the guns-cold merge, what's to stop him from going purely aggressive, with no care for defending against the obvious fact that his opponents guns are pointed in his general direction, and could be brought to bear? 

In that example, I'd argue that a guns cold merge could lead to less-solid ACM, especially if it was used repeatedly, and created "bad" (IMO) habits.

OK, that's your personal choice and is noted, but I really don't see what that has to do with "HO shot or ACM" question in general?
Just because you don't mind HO (or being good enough to avoid it) doesn't mean it's a good choice. Please find me some air combat literature where HO shots are sold as a good choice (rare exceptions noted).

Boy, I swear I said this earlier, but just in case I forgot...

The HO isn't a good choice.  It's a bad choice.

Even if I did find literature somewhere selling it as such, I'd really have trouble being sold on the idea that it was/is a good choice.

That doesn't mean it isn't occasionally the best choice.  Or that it isn't always a valid, legitimate choice.

Just because it exposes the pilot to harm doesn't make it invalid, or illegitimate.  If we used the "harm's way" argument, could we even justify taking off in AH?  Heck, even with no enemies around, landing can be hazardous...  Anyone in enemy territory at any altitude lower than all enemies is in harm's way.  Exposing your six to the enemy in order to use the more-advanced-than-than-the-HO tactic of the BRD puts you in harm's way... 
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline mtnman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2438
Re: Reviewing the "HO"
« Reply #85 on: May 26, 2010, 01:54:59 PM »
MTman  "I approach every merge expecting an HO, "   I have never seen you play like this and ive  fought  you more than once.       You approach every merge expecting the front  quarter shot.   There is a big  differance.....


Thats not a HO...  Its simply a front quarter shot before the first merge.              Im not seeing any one in this thread differentiating   between  HO and Front Quarter shot.....


Its really  hard to follow the discusion  here.   What is the point of defining Ho and front quarter shot if every one is going to use Ho to describe both ?

Guns  hot  before the first merge  or 2nd  or 3rd ect....  is NOT the same thing as a HO.         
             

<S>

Good point sir, but I think what one see's as a FQ, another often sees as an "HO that I avoided, only to be shot with a "cheap" FQ shot".

As far as defining it specifically...  I'd ask- why?  As a "positional mapping" tool, sure.  It's a shot from directly in front, with both planes able to theoretically hit each other (theoretical, because it could depend a lot on convergence settings, and you might actually need to aim high or low to hit the guy directly in front of you, lol!).  If you pointed your nose slightly down, would it still be HO?

From a "legitimacy of shot choice", I don't see it.  From a damage standpoint, I don't see it.  The bullet through your <insert part> ends the fight.  Does it matter which direction it came from?
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline mtnman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2438
Re: Reviewing the "HO"
« Reply #86 on: May 26, 2010, 02:15:54 PM »
Hey MTN, forgive my late quote here. I see this in bold as a selfish attitude. I'm not calling you selfish by character, I have full respect for you, just calling that statement. The reason you 'wasted your time on that' was fun for two people. I have read the whole thread and I find some things you say very true, such as 'who decides what is valid' and 'the object is to shoot the other guy down'. That line of your argument is logical and fair. I also cant stand the fashion of complaining evertime we get killed in a way we didnt like. Which by the way, happens to be everytime we die, as we dont ever like being shot.

What I strongly take issue to is the quote i put in bold above.
If you had made the killshot on a HO merge, would it be fun for the other player? No.
Would it even be fun for you? I don't see how.

Rest assured Batfinkv/mechanic, the respect is mutual...  This is an interesting discussion, and I hope nobody takes any of it as an attack against anyone...  I won't.

Fun for 2?  No.  Read the rest of the paragraph you quoted that from.  Win or lose, the fun is not there for me.  I'm picky, I know.  I'll finish out the fight, but I've lost interest.  I'm finishing it out of respect for my opponent, not for any desire to see what the conclusion is.  That's unselfish, if anything.  Also, I simply avoid contact where I expect those behaviors/maneuvers/whatever, so I'm not "polluting" the area with my bad "vibe".

And, I'm not advocating the the HO as a fun way to win.  I'm advocating as a valuable component in keeping or fights and ACM more realistic, which is IMO, more rewarding.  I generally wouldn't HO if it was the most respected way to kill in the game.  That's beside the point.

Shooting your opponent in the back is considered cowardly in every example I can think of, except aerial combat.  In more "common" applications of the bravery/cowardice idea, we'd see HOing as the most valiant option.

This is a game about sporting competition and rivalry. It is not a life or death situation where your entire nation is at war with the other pilot. Not taking a HO shot is not some misguided sense of 'honour'. What it is is a player saying 'Hey, lets take a risk and see what happens if I don't take the easy option'.  Some of the best fights are when both players push the evelope even further and hold fire on any HO merge throughout the fight. I'm not talking about people who turn away at 400 yards ahead of the 3-9 cross on first merge, they deserve to get shot. I'm talking about a true bonafide head on merge where both pilots hold guns on target untill collision avoidance is critical. We are discussing the HO shot. Not a FQ shot. Yes a HO is also 'valid' but so is ramming them, niether are very clever.
 

What risk?

If you're more skilled than your opponent, the most risky part of the fight for you may be the possible HO/FQ shot from your opponent!  By "taking that away/out of the fight" you've made the fight drastically safer for yourself, and drastically more dangerous to your opponent...  Where's the "honour" in that.  

If the fun is in the length of the fight, why use guns at all?  If it isn't in the historical aspects of the game, why is nobody fighting in the RV's?

It's a cocky and arrogant spirit that teases the opponent with a longer fight, a show of bravado that proclaims 'I don't need to take the first and easiest shot I can'.  It is taking a risk, because risk is exciting and unpredictable. Killing the enemy with a touch of class and finesse or dying trying is worth more to me than another notch on my kill card. So what if you lose and he thinks 'I've got this flying thing sorted out'. That false sense of acheivement wont last long after they next get shot down.

It's cocky, arrogant, risky, exciting, etc, if you've earned it.  If you haven't earned it, it's just playing with your food.  If your opponents best (or simply his favorite, or preferred) card is the HO, or a wingman, or whatever, and you take it away by saying he can't use it, where's the class in that?

Taking the first merge HO shot is doing nothing but proclaiming an inherant lack of self confidence in winning the fight any other way.

Or a way of saying- "Back to the tower with you!  Come back when you learn how to merge!"  Or "I don't need to out-fly you, you're obviously having trouble with one of the most basic threats in the game- allowing your opponent to shoot you!"  Or "Hello!  McFly!"

Trust me, I'm cocky enough to not feel like the HO is my only or best option.  But I do wonder at times whether I should begin to apply it where needed, to keep the fights/merges a little more "honest".

And taking the HO shot isn't where the greatest value of the HO lies.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 02:22:27 PM by mtnman »
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline FireDrgn

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1115
Re: Reviewing the "HO"
« Reply #87 on: May 26, 2010, 04:09:15 PM »
Mtman   "Good point sir, but I think what one see's as a FQ, another often sees as an "HO that I avoided, only to be shot with a "cheap" FQ shot".

That is precisely why  it needs to be defined specifically.   What is your definition of "cheap"..... How is it cheap in the context of you flying for better position.

Another that sees a cheap shot... is flat out screwwing the other player...  if they  think they should be able to go for a better position and asking him not to shoot you for it.


I think it needs to be defined also because of the intent of Humbles post. He is trying to educate players.  There can be more to a fight . 

This is a much more complex issues than just players should not Ho.  It does not give the players this thread is suppose to educate any education..

    "When the student is ready the teacher will appear".... until then i will give them an opportunity for a front  quarter shot so i can have a better position..

<S>
"When the student is ready the teacher will appear."   I am not a teacher.

Offline mtnman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2438
Re: Reviewing the "HO"
« Reply #88 on: May 26, 2010, 06:01:35 PM »
Mtman   "Good point sir, but I think what one see's as a FQ, another often sees as an "HO that I avoided, only to be shot with a "cheap" FQ shot".

That is precisely why  it needs to be defined specifically.   What is your definition of "cheap"..... How is it cheap in the context of you flying for better position.

Another that sees a cheap shot... is flat out screwwing the other player...  if they  think they should be able to go for a better position and asking him not to shoot you for it.


I think it needs to be defined also because of the intent of Humbles post. He is trying to educate players.  There can be more to a fight .  

This is a much more complex issues than just players should not Ho.  It does not give the players this thread is suppose to educate any education..

    "When the student is ready the teacher will appear".... until then i will give them an opportunity for a front  quarter shot so i can have a better position..

<S>


I don't think it's necessarily a cheap shot.  I was explaining why I think some are so willing to consider a FQ shot almost synonymous with HO.  

In some cases, I think people are using the idea that it can be seen as a "cheap shot" as a form of "shield".  As in "He won't dare take this shot, because it'll be seen as "cheap", or an HO, so I should be able to get away with doing <insert option here>...  In my opinion, this attitude "cheapens" fights more than an HO (or nearly HO FQ shot) does.

As for defining "cheap", give us your best shot, if you'd like it to be defined.  You don't need someone else to begin that discussion...

As far as education, different people can, and maybe should, be taking different things from this discussion.  In my view, without the HO as a possibility (I'm not saying anyone needs to take it, just that it's important to have it as a potential component) the "there can be more to a fight" idea isn't necessarily true.  Removing the HO as an option isn't any more legitimate than removing the option to shoot from any other direction.

Keep in mind also, I always fire my guns from the same position and in the same direction in relation to my plane.  They always fire forward.  So, since I never fire in any direction other than forward, and that's obvious to anyone that see's my plane (all F4U's fire forward), in order for it to be an HO or a nearly HO FQ shot, there's at least some level of "cooperation" that falls to the other pilot.  For example, if I "refuse" to let you HO me, by constantly turning away, you'd never be able to HO me.  An exception might be an example of where I'm busy in a 3v1 fight, and so low in E that I can't maneuver well, and so drained in SA that I can't keep tabs on you, where you could "force" me into an HO.  And, in that situation I'd highly question your skill level or sanity, since I should be an easy, low-threat kill, not justifying the risk to yourself of an HO, and giving me a potential shot on you.

Lets say we all decide that HO's are lame, and nobody should ever take them.  Potentially, then, I could actually use that to my advantage!  I could be at a point in a fight where I'm going to get shot, unless I pull for the HO... and "force" you to hold your shot.  How "legitimate" or "cheap" would that be?

Right now, the way I see it, that's already happening to some extent.  But in our current situation, it could also be seen as "volunteering for an HO", instead of "forcing you to hold your fire".

I don't think anyone is debating that the HO as a tactic is a good one, or that there aren't a lot of better options generally available.  

I also don't consider it "good ACM" if you open yourself up to an HO (or nearly HO FQ) shot, that you can only live through if your opponent chooses to hold fire.  IMO, the moment your opponent has a kill-shot, you've lost.  Even if it's in the opening move of the fight.  Anything that occurs after that (unless it results from an honest miss, or error) is just so much "fluff" even if it lasts for 1/2 hour, and gets really slow, and looks really neat, and you get to go upside down, and do rolls, etc...

Do your fancy flying.  Have your long, drawn out, fight (I love those too!).  Those are often the the best parts about the game, IMO.  But for me, they've got to begin (and continue) "honestly", in order (for me) to rate them as "good" or "great".  Without that, they're "sub-good", at best.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 06:51:50 PM by mtnman »
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline mechanic

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11308
Re: Reviewing the "HO"
« Reply #89 on: May 27, 2010, 02:12:46 AM »
 I think your main point has alot more to do with FQ shots than true HO shots MTN. Sure, if I was to turn away early at the merge to gain an angles advantage then I should get shot at for doing so. That is a completely different situation to a fight that starts with both players holding guns on till the last second.This is where the 'cheap' HO shot becomes most apparent. When both players hold fire untill the last second and then one of them jinks and fires just before they cross...that is cheap. There was no angles advantage to be gained for the player who held fire.

 That is the lowest form of merge trick I know of. It is usualy done by more experienced players who don't have confidence in their flying ability after a merge. They will hold guns on through the merge, knowing full well that if the other guy is not firing at D600 they probably will have a free pass to HO at the last second.

 I fully understand your point about less experienced players taking the best chance at winning they have. But I disagree that expecting someone not to HO is me wanting to 'show off my pilot sheet'. If I wanted to do that I would not merge, I would give them my tail and reverse them. Expecting the enemy not to open fire HO is actualy me giving them a compliment, suggesting that I believe they have the ability to beat me in the ensuing fight. The 'risk' I mentioned is 'they might be able to beat me.'

Rest assured Batfinkv/mechanic, the respect is mutual...  This is an interesting discussion, and I hope nobody takes any of it as an attack against anyone...  I won't.

Fun for 2?  No.  Read the rest of the paragraph you quoted that from.  Win or lose, the fun is not there for me.  I'm picky, I know.  I'll finish out the fight, but I've lost interest.  I'm finishing it out of respect for my opponent, not for any desire to see what the conclusion is.  That's unselfish, if anything.  Also, I simply avoid contact where I expect those behaviors/maneuvers/whatever, so I'm not "polluting" the area with my bad "vibe".

And, I'm not advocating the the HO as a fun way to win.  I'm advocating as a valuable component in keeping or fights and ACM more realistic, which is IMO, more rewarding.  I generally wouldn't HO if it was the most respected way to kill in the game.  That's beside the point.

Shooting your opponent in the back is considered cowardly in every example I can think of, except aerial combat.  In more "common" applications of the bravery/cowardice idea, we'd see HOing as the most valiant option.

Interesting point. Again though, I would like to highlight that for me, not taking the HO shot is not about bravery or honour. It is about both players respecting that they have reached an equal possition and need to continue fighting to reach a result that means anything. Otherwise why not we all just play an online marksmanship game and get rid of the flying aspect alltogether?
  

Quote
What risk?

If you're more skilled than your opponent, the most risky part of the fight for you may be the possible HO/FQ shot from your opponent!  By "taking that away/out of the fight" you've made the fight drastically safer for yourself, and drastically more dangerous to your opponent...  Where's the "honour" in that.  

What if we are equaly matched yet one player takes a HO shot while the other is holding fire?

Quote
If the fun is in the length of the fight, why use guns at all?  If it isn't in the historical aspects of the game, why is nobody fighting in the RV's?

It is not in the length of the fight. It is in how much you deserve to win.

Quote
It's cocky, arrogant, risky, exciting, etc, if you've earned it.  If you haven't earned it, it's just playing with your food.  If your opponents best (or simply his favorite, or preferred) card is the HO, or a wingman, or whatever, and you take it away by saying he can't use it, where's the class in that?

I'm not saying anyone can't use it! Just giving my opinion on it. You have earned it if you have a mutual gun solution and you choose to observe most widely accepted unwritten rule that AcesHigh has. Mutual gun solution being the important part. I can't emphasise how much of what you are saying strikes me as being much more relavent to FQ shots.

Quote
Or a way of saying- "Back to the tower with you!  Come back when you learn how to merge!"  Or "I don't need to out-fly you, you're obviously having trouble with one of the most basic threats in the game- allowing your opponent to shoot you!"  Or "Hello!  McFly!"

Trust me, I'm cocky enough to not feel like the HO is my only or best option.  But I do wonder at times whether I should begin to apply it where needed, to keep the fights/merges a little more "honest".


This is where again I think you are merging the line between a HO shot and a FQ shot. If someone has merged so badly with you that you are given a FQ shot then it is not a HO. It is not even a merge. It is simply an attack by the player who still has guns on. When both players have guns on, this is a HO and it is a merge. If you find yourself holding fire on FQ shots and regreting it then I agree the fight was not honest. If you found yourself losing a fight because you held fire on a HO shot then the fight is definitely 'honest'.




Quote
And taking the HO shot isn't where the greatest value of the HO lies.

true! :)
« Last Edit: May 27, 2010, 02:44:51 AM by mechanic »
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.