What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.

[E25280]

And here it is... the current tank vs tank k/d matrix for LW, after 10 days of current tour:

(Image removed from quote.)

I will do this again after the tour has been completed. Some numbers may shift considerably due to the relatively low number of engagements between certain types.

The Sherman 75 shows a 1.1 kill per death ratio against the T-34/76.
The shows T-34/76 a 1.1 kill per death ratio against the Sherman 75.

Shouldn't one of these be a 0.9?  Or am I reading the chart wrong?

[Lusche]

The Sherman 75 shows a 1.1 kill per death ratio against the T-34/76.
The shows T-34/76 a 1.1 kill per death ratio against the Sherman 75.

Shouldn't one of these be a 0.9?  Or am I reading the chart wrong?

No, you are not reading it wrong, yet my numbers are (were) correct.

No how can this be possible? It took me a few minutes to compiled the data, and even though I did that at the time with least action in the MA's, there must have been a tank fight between those two types, which is extraordinary rare.
When I looked up the M4 numbers, it was 17-16, a few minutes later (when I came to the T-34) it was 17-19 - 3 M4(75)'s had been killed by a T-34/76. With numbers that low, it caused a shift in the k/d balance.  

This was the only fight during compilation that had any influence on the numbers, though.

[Nemisis]

Not quite as rare as you think. I engaged 2 T-34's two days ago. killed one, and got an assist on the other (damn tiger took my kill  )

[Lusche]

Not quite as rare as you think.

The number say otherwise. T-34/76 vs M4(75) is currently  the about rarest tank fight in the LW, tied with a T-34/76 vs T-T-34/76 and M4(75) vs M4(75) duels

Some examples:
M4(76) vs M4(76) - 10164 combats (= recorded kills repectively deaths)
M4(76) vs Panzer - 8887 combats
M4(76) vs Tiger - 1336 combats
Tiger vs T-34/85 - 253 combats
M4(75) vs M4(75) - 12 combats
M4(75) vs T-34/76 - 33 combats

[BaldEagl]

So if I've interpreted Lusche's table right then, not accounting for terrain, base numbers for each scenario would be:

M475 2 - Panzer 1
M476 1 - Panzer 2
Firefly 1 - Panzer 4


T34/76 2 - Panzer 1
T34/85 2 - Panzer 3


M475 0 - Tiger 0
M476 8 - Tiger 1
Firefly 3 - Tiger 2


T34/76 0 - Tiger 0
T34/85 3 - Tiger 1

Of course coordination of resources would skew these numbers and possibly considerably.

I'm not sure I'd want to be an American in the first scenario or a German in the third or fourth but the second looks ok.

Using those numbers as a baseline I might now revise them to look more like this:

M475 2 - Panzer 1
M476 1 - Panzer 2
Firefly 2 - Panzer 4


T34/76 2 - Panzer 1
T34/85 2 - Panzer 3


M475 0 - Tiger 0
M476 6 - Tiger 2
Firefly 2 - Tiger 2


T34/76 0 - Tiger 0
T34/85 2 - Tiger 1

[E25280]

No, you are not reading it wrong, yet my numbers are (were) correct.

No how can this be possible? It took me a few minutes to compiled the data, and even though I did that at the time with least action in the MA's, there must have been a tank fight between those two types, which is extraordinary rare.
When I looked up the M4 numbers, it was 17-16, a few minutes later (when I came to the T-34) it was 17-19 - 3 M4(75)'s had been killed by a T-34/76. With numbers that low, it caused a shift in the k/d balance.  

This was the only fight during compilation that had any influence on the numbers, though.

Well, pretty close no matter how you cut it.

[Lusche]

So if I've interpreted Lusche's table right then, not accounting for terrain, base numbers for each scenario would be:

M475 2 - Panzer 1
M476 1 - Panzer 2
Firefly 1 - Panzer 4


T34/76 2 - Panzer 1
T34/85 2 - Panzer 3


M475 0 - Tiger 0
M476 8 - Tiger 1
Firefly 3 - Tiger 2


T34/76 0 - Tiger 0
T34/85 3 - Tiger 1

The sad thing is - you can't take the K/D numbers and simply convert it that way. In typical MA gameplay, a Tiger may kill 8 M4(76)W's before finally being killed, but those are mostly 1-2 Shermans facing the Tiger at a time (Tiger sitting on Vbase, defending against one or two guys rolling in repeatedly). Now if you would really have 8 Shermans fighting the Tiger at the same time, the Tiger would hardly have a chance to kill 'em all...


(wrote this before you modified your posting coming to the same conclusion )

[Nemisis]

Eagle, 5 M476's will sufice. The tiger's edge over it isn't THAT great, especially in wooded terrain. Hell, I've snuck up on one when rolling over an open field.

[BaldEagl]

Eagle, 5 M476's will sufice. The tiger's edge over it isn't THAT great, especially in wooded terrain. Hell, I've snuck up on one when rolling over an open field.

I modified it while you were typing removing one of the Fireflys instead.

[BaldEagl]

The sad thing is - you can't take the K/D numbers and simply convert it that way. In typical MA gameplay, a Tiger may kill 8 M4(76)W's before finally being killed, but those are mostly 1-2 Shermans facing the Tiger at a time (Tiger sitting on Vbase, defending against one or two guys rolling in repeatedly). Now if you would really have 8 Shermans fighting the Tiger at the same time, the Tiger would hardly have a chance to kill 'em all...


(wrote this before you modified your posting coming to the same conclusion )

No.

I want to see the scenario with 85 M475's against a single Tiger.   

[Nemisis]

I wouldn't mind taking one on with 10 so long as they didn't start us out 3200yds apart with no cover but the burms inbetween us.

[Easyscor]

I’ve added a page for this information to the CM team’s private reference pages that I maintain. It’s still marked Under Construction, probably until the end of this month.

I’m looking forward to seeing Lusche’s final tour data, and at that time I’ll review all of these posts again before I update and bless the page for CM reference.

To all the posters in this thread, you have my thanks. 

[Nemisis]

No problem easyscor. And is there any chance that we will see tanks in the scenarios again?

[jay]

how about this it ALL depends on WHO is driving the darned tanka anyways????!!

[Easyscor]

No problem easyscor. And is there any chance that we will see tanks in the scenarios again?

That would be a Brooke question, but since he started this thread, perhaps he's thinking about it.

I record and archive information like this and try to present it in an informative way, which helps the Admin CMs build their setups. It's very important data in this case, as you and others have alluded, sheer numbers but especially the terrain, can severely impact the success of a GV event.

Yes Jay, in the context of your post, that's true in the MAs and for what I call 'registered walkons'. No matter how good you are, if your undisciplined group comes up against a group that has been practicing tank tactic, (same for any ride) they will win and you will loose. The information we're seeking in this thread is data that the CMs may use to make sure that the outcome wasn't skewed by our setup, that you have a fair shot at coming out on top.

Edit: spelling