109 vs 190 a different story

[gyrene81]

EDIT: I found a comparison document about the F6F-5 and the F4U-1 vs the Fw 190:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/ptr-1107.pdf


Bottom line: I think i'd better do research myself before i start posting  .

You might want to take that comparison report with a grain of salt. There was some contention as to whether or not the 190 mentioned was actually an A4 model or an earlier one. Post it anywhere else as an example and people laugh at it. I made the mistake myself once.

[Stoney]

So, they clipped the wings on the Spitfires to obtain better roll-rate but it came at a price, It hindered its high-altitude performance because of reduced lift and increased drag.

I think the supercharger gearing reduced its altitude performance much more than the wing planform.

[WING47]

I just found this on the youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0YLLBvIBFk

The video says 190's could out turn 109's at any speed...  If that's so, why don't the 190's turn at all in game?

If you look at a 109s cockpit, it is very small. The pilot had no room to move his arms a great deal. Thus he could not put as much force on the stick. This is a factor not modeled in AH

[Stoney]

If you look at a 109s cockpit, it is very small. The pilot had no room to move his arms a great deal. Thus he could not put as much force on the stick. This is a factor not modeled in AH

What if he was a small pilot?  In which direction?  Maybe he was a 35 year old bachelor?

[Karnak]

If you look at a 109s cockpit, it is very small. The pilot had no room to move his arms a great deal. Thus he could not put as much force on the stick. This is a factor not modeled in AH

Actually, it is modeled.

[BnZs]

When blessed with a similar power loading, the 190 does every single thing as well or better than a 109 EXCEPT turn. And turning is way, way, way, way overrated in realistic air combat.

[SgtPappy]

I may have to disagree, BnZs.

The 109F and G2 do pretty well in sustained climb and acceleration vs a 190. Acceleration's a big thing, especially.

[gyrene81]

If you look at a 109s cockpit, it is very small. The pilot had no room to move his arms a great deal. Thus he could not put as much force on the stick. This is a factor not modeled in AH

Uh, you might want to double check your facts there. The stick was a bit short and high wing load design made the control surfaces get "heavier" with higher speed which increased the pressure needed to move the stick...had nothing to do with the pilots ability to move his arms.

[BnZs]

I may have to disagree, BnZs.

The 109F and G2 do pretty well in sustained climb and acceleration vs a 190. Acceleration's a big thing, especially.

Note I said, "when blessed with similar power loadings". 109s and 190s kept upping the ante on horse power through the war. But for all the things that really count in WWII *airframe*-firepower, dive handling, roll rate, visibility, controls, ruggedness-the 190 has it all over the 109. Every time my squad gets assigned 109s in FSO its like "Awesome, we have the uber-craft" and every time its 190As its like "we are all going to die" yet consistently better kill numbers get racked up for us in the Butcher-Bird.

[Stoney]

I think as soon as the 190 showed up, they should have quit making the 109.  More capable aircraft by far, but then I'm partial to rotary engines...

[gyrene81]

I think as soon as the 190 showed up, they should have quit making the 109.  More capable aircraft by far, but then I'm partial to rotary engines...

I dunno Stoney. If they had changed the 109 in some ways, it would have been better than the 190 in every way. Say with the G-6 if they had changed the wing design to decrease the wing load a bit, implemented the same electrical control systems that the 190 had, changed the canopy and the rudder, it may have improved the capabilities of the 109. The 190s suffered from engine heating problems from the drawing board and the fuselage was not nearly as streamlined as the 109.

[Stoney]

Well, like BnZ said, from the beginning, the 190 inherently possessed the qualities that eventually mattered in the ETO air war.  With a more powerful engine and it would have been a very challenging aircraft.  The 109 design was old and aging by the time the ETO air war really heated up.  It was like the Japanese continuing to improve the Zeke when they really should have just dumped the design and concentrated on something else.

[BnZs]

Actually, it is modeled.

The extent to which it is modeled is basically a judgment call with no one "right" answer though...I mean, who are we simulating at the controls? A bantamweight or a 200 lbs. power-lifter?

If the 109 (as an example, there are other planes that had a rep for tough controls at high IAS) had controls that become too stiff to pull blackout Gs at say, 300-320mph IAS (as is the case in some sims), instead of the ~400mph IAS it takes in AHII, it WOULD change the capabilities of the 109 vrs. other iron in maneuvering combat to a notable extent. Having the "pilot" be more G resistant would have a similar effect. As it is, the 109 hardly has any problems with controls during ACM, it's only a big deal if one is trying to do very high speed bnz with a 109. But like I say, there is probably no "right" answer to the problem.

[PanosGR]

i suspect most of u have allready see that video so I'm not trying to say something new here. The only i can quote i that i don't know how u can simulate in a game an awkward and tiny cockpit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9YVei2Yb_k

[gyrene81]

i suspect most of u have allready see that video so I'm not trying to say something new here. The only i can quote i that i don't know how u can simulate in a game an awkward and tiny cockpit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9YVei2Yb_k

What makes you think it's "awkward and tiny"? It was obviously designed to be spacious enough to accomodate a 6ft tall man. So an offensive lineman from an american football team couldn't fit comfortably in it, so what? The cockpit on the A6M was designed for people of much smaller stature than the cockpit on the 109. If the 109 cockpit was so small that a person of average stature couldn't peform the functions needed, the plane would never have left the ground.