Films of effective use of Lag displacement rolls

[Ardy123]

I know how to do a lag displacement roll but I don't always executed them properly, ie they don't place me where I was hoping to be. I know its a timing issue but I was wondering if anyone had any films of fights where they used one  successfully so that I can get a better feel for the timing of the execution.

[2bighorn]

The only time they are useful is to prevent overshoot. It's not so much in timing as it is in relative speed differential and position. If you're really that much faster you'll have to convert it into large radius barrel roll to stay behind bandits 3/9 line. They are also easy to counter if you can fly watching backwards, so it can easily end in rolling scissors if attacker doesn't pay attention.

[Ardy123]

I was looking for when the attacking plane (the one doing the lag displacement roll) has a worse turning radius, thus by doing a lag displacement roll and using its engine power + roll rate, it could 'cut' the turn. My problem is that I usually don't end up with a firing position after doing it

[2bighorn]

I was looking for when the attacking plane (the one doing the lag displacement roll) has a worse turning radius, thus by doing a lag displacement roll and using its engine power + roll rate, it could 'cut' the turn. My problem is that I usually don't end up with a firing position after doing it

Ad more of the vertical component to it.

[Sonicblu]

As soon as I see a plane doing a vertical displacement roll. I stop turning. As soon as I see them coming out of the vertical into a barrel roll, is when I turn back into them.

You must be blind during to much  of it. Play with your views and keep sight of the other con. As soon as I go vertical if the other plane is turning right. I roll just a tad and look down and to the right side. If he is still turning then I will barrel roll at this point you are blind for a bit. Dont barrel roll while in the vert just roll counter clockwise enough to see the con one last time.

[Ardy123]

I roll just a tad and look down and to the right side. If he is still turning then I will barrel roll at this point you are blind for a bit. Dont barrel roll while in the vert just roll counter clockwise enough to see the con one last time.

ahh the key, I was just pulling up, then rolling and pulling back.

[bozon]

The only time they are useful is to prevent overshoot. It's not so much in timing as it is in relative speed differential and position. If you're really that much faster you'll have to convert it into large radius barrel roll to stay behind bandits 3/9 line. They are also easy to counter if you can fly watching backwards, so it can easily end in rolling scissors if attacker doesn't pay attention.

ahh the key, I was just pulling up, then rolling and pulling back.

Lag displacement roll is not intended to prevent overshoot. It is an offensive maneuver against a flat turning plane that can pull a tighter turn. The most important aspect that is initially a bit hard to grasp is the "displacement". This refers to the center of your turning circle vs. you opponent's.

If your center and your opponent's center are close, than the geometry of flat turns will be a circle within a circle - the wider turning attacker will never get a gun solution. This is how a break turn is effective. If on the other hand the center of the attacker's circle is well behind the center of the defender, the circles will cross and not only that, the attacker will need to turn fewer degrees to the first gun solution point than the defender. This is exactly the same as the familiar case of the defender making his break too soon and you easily pull a lead.

By delaying the turn after the attacker and initiating the roll through the opposite direction, you move the center of your circle relative to his - displacement. During this time he gains some angles over you - you lag. You use your vertical pull & roll to tilt the plane of your turn when you come out of the roll to cut a bit across his circle in the horizontal projection, not unlike a low yo-yo to gain some angles back. Lag, displacement, roll.

If he straightens out or reverse his flat turn, say thank you and convert your move into a barrel roll. Proceed promptly to shooting him down. This is not a "win" maneuver, it is critically dependent on timing and 3D understanding of the flight paths. It will only set you up for a snap shot opportunity and the defender can counter it by adding vertical components of his own while you heavily rely on extrapolating his flat turn. The big thing about this move is that you can keep going at it for a while, in quick succession to keep pressure and most likely any effective counter your opponent will make will leave him with less E than you, hence it is relatively "safe". Most players will tend to trust their supposedly superior turn and just keep pulling on the stick hoping to come around on you. Quite a few will misjudge your intentions and do something silly like reversing their turn when they see you pull up and roll the other way.

[mtnman]

Lag displacement roll is not intended to prevent overshoot. It is an offensive maneuver against a flat turning plane that can pull a tighter turn. The most important aspect that is initially a bit hard to grasp is the "displacement". This refers to the center of your turning circle vs. you opponent's.

If your center and your opponent's center are close, than the geometry of flat turns will be a circle within a circle - the wider turning attacker will never get a gun solution. This is how a break turn is effective. If on the other hand the center of the attacker's circle is well behind the center of the defender, the circles will cross and not only that, the attacker will need to turn fewer degrees to the first gun solution point than the defender. This is exactly the same as the familiar case of the defender making his break too soon and you easily pull a lead.

By delaying the turn after the attacker and initiating the roll through the opposite direction, you move the center of your circle relative to his - displacement. During this time he gains some angles over you - you lag. You use your vertical pull & roll to tilt the plane of your turn when you come out of the roll to cut a bit across his circle in the horizontal projection, not unlike a low yo-yo to gain some angles back. Lag, displacement, roll.

If he straightens out or reverse his flat turn, say thank you and convert your move into a barrel roll. Proceed promptly to shooting him down. This is not a "win" maneuver, it is critically dependent on timing and 3D understanding of the flight paths. It will only set you up for a snap shot opportunity and the defender can counter it by adding vertical components of his own while you heavily rely on extrapolating his flat turn. The big thing about this move is that you can keep going at it for a while, in quick succession to keep pressure and most likely any effective counter your opponent will make will leave him with less E than you, hence it is relatively "safe". Most players will tend to trust their supposedly superior turn and just keep pulling on the stick hoping to come around on you. Quite a few will misjudge your intentions and do something silly like reversing their turn when they see you pull up and roll the other way.

This is also how I use it for the most part.  Closing on an opponent (especially a slower, better-turning plane) from the rear, and he makes a hard break to the RIGHT.  I pull up and barrel roll LEFT just a bit later, and end up on his six as he levels back out to look for me.  If he spots me quick enough, he can find me 200-400 off his six.

It's a nice way to follow a hard break without scrubbing a bunch of E. 

It's also handy because if you start it (and keep an eye on your victim) it's obvious if he's watching for you to do that, because he stops his break and tries to speed up.

I also use a barrel roll to avoid overshooting an opponent, but it's a bit different.

I ALSO use a

[Dawger]

Lag displacement rolls convert excess lead pursuit into lag pursuit.

They can be used defensively or offensively.

On offense they are most often used when the bandit creates excess lead pursuit by turning. The classic example is when you are in lag pursuit and the bandit reverses his turn. Lag instantly becomes lead pursuit.

The training example I've used is the high yo yo that converts to a lag displacement roll when the bandit reverses.

Here is an old film demonstrating this.

Yo yo to lag roll film

On defense the most common use is to create excess lead through proper use of a break turn. Done correctly you create an across the tail overshoot which is, by definition excess lead pursuit. Wings level then nose high followed by a lag displacement roll to bring yourself onto the bandit turn circle.

Here is a short film that demonstrates the technique on defense. You will see in the film that it successfully converts the bandit from offensive to neutral. There are some requirements before using the lag roll on defense. The first priority is the bandit has to have excess closure. In the example the closure rate is just adequate to convert him. If the bandit has no excess closure he can follow the maneuver and get an easy shot. The break turn is where you make your decision.

Don't do a panic break. Slowly build the G force. The rate you build the G force depends upon the bandit distance and closure. Your goal is to time the break so that you reach maximum angle just as he arrives at guns range. Practically this means pulling the bandit through the canopy so that he reaches the lift vector (an imaginary line running from your seat through the top of the canopy out into space) just as he reaches guns range. At that point you have to know his closure. If he has excess closure and will overshoot behind your tail, go wings level, bring the nose above the horizon and put the lift vector on the bandit by rolling the wings to him. Hold the lift vector on him until he squirts out ahead of you.

If the bandit doesn't have excess closure the lag roll will get you killed. Roll underneath for a split S if you have altitude or flat scissors if you don't.

defensive lag roll

[Dawger]

This film

defensive lag roll

and this picture, which are the trails from the above film, might illustrate defensive use of the lag displacement roll a little better.

[Dawger]

Before we get folks in here calling stuff different names I'll go ahead and define lag displacement rolls.

A lag displacement roll is a barrel roll used to displace flight path sideways.

This film illustrates the concept. the flight path is displaced from one runway to another parallel to it.

displacement roll example

To use this maneuver against a target aircraft there is only one condition that need be met. That condition is you are in excess lead pursuit.

The best illustration of excess lead pursuit and a formation use of lag displacement rolls is wing abreast formation with a friendly. If you want to convert to trail formation you could execute a lag displacement roll.

Here is a film on a bandit that illustrates this in slow motion.

barrel roll attack

Anytime you find yourself in a situation like this the lag roll is appropriate. On offense or defense.

[Sonicblu]

Very nice Dawger thanks for the visual aids it really helps alot.

It weird but I find myself doing some of these things even though I can't picture it 3D all the time.

It is interesting watching from the cockpit view then looking from outside with trails on.

 

[Dawger]

I love Aces High films. It is the best training tool.

Here is one I got yesterday that demonstrates the defensive lag roll against a hard turning bandit intent on staying in an angles fight.

Defensive lag roll versus Yak